Text: Subject: [science-l] Re: looking for Pythagoras Date: 19 Sep 1998 23:38:20 -0000 From: Barry Carter To: Science & Spirituality List Dear Mist, At 04:11 PM 9/19/98 -0000, Lady Whytemist wrote: >I've been lurking on this list for about a week and have become >very excited! Quantum Physics, M-D reality, kundalini, alchemy... >All my favorite subjects!!! > >Well, I'm not in the scientific community and I also have a little >difficulty folowing the "deep" stuff - But, I read and re-read >until I can grasp the concepts! > >I'm getting very busy reading all the web info all of you have >suggested. Its getting truly fascinating! I'm attempting to synthesize >all of this into one cohesive understanding. I >truly feel all of you are really onto something very important! >These topics all resonate and I was wondering...Can anyone come >up with a theory which embarces all of these ideas??? > >Looking forward to your responses! In May I posted the following article on the ORMUS elements and how we believe that they relate to consciousness, God, the universe and everything. I know that some of it is a bit technical and I hope that you will alert me to these portions so that I can simplify and clarify them. I am reposting this article since there are many new folks on this list who have not seen it. I appologize to those who have already read or deleted it. It seems that a substance has been found which has properties of both matter and spirit. Multiverse theories and modern quantum theory in general suggest a relationship between consciousness and matter. This relationship can be contemplated from two distinct theoretical perspectives. One can hypothesize that consciousness is a product of matter or one can hypothesize that matter is a product of consciousness. In some ways, each of these hypotheses would look similar "on-the-ground". The "implicate order" underlying the laws of physics could be "just the way things work" or it could be conscious intent. The "just the way things work" paradigm is basic to "traditional physics" and the "conscious intent" paradigm is basic to "traditional metaphysics". For a long time, metaphysicists have suggested that the chasm between physics and metaphysics can be bridged. Some modern physicists are also suggesting the this chasm can be bridged. David Bohm has developed the concept of "implicate order" in a way which would not preclude the concept of matter as a product of consciousness and Brian Josephson is working on his "Mind/Matter Unification Project. The bridge between physics and metaphysics is virtually complete but it is lacking the keystone for the main arch. On the physics side of the bridge, Stuart Hameroff and Roger Penrose have proposed a quantum computing "mechanism" which would explain the incredible computing capacity demonstrated in ordinary life functions. They have proposed that the microtubules inside every cell have quantum computing capability. See: http://www.u.arizona.edu/~hameroff/penrose1.html Hameroff and Penrose write: "We assume that pre-and sub-conscious processing corresponds with quantum coherent superposition which can perform "quantum computing" (Penrose, 1989). A number of authors (e.g. Deutsch, 1985; Deutsch and Josza 1992; Feynman 1986; Benioff, 1982) have proposed that quantum coherence can implement multiple computations simultaneously, in parallel, according to quantum linear superposition: the quantum state then "collapses" to a particular result. A state which "self-collapses" (OR) will have an element of non-computability, even though evolution of its quantum coherence had been linear and computable. A quantum superposed state collapsed by external environment or observation (SR, or R) lacks a non-computable element, and would thus be unsuitable for consciousness. Large scale quantum coherence occurring among tubulins (e.g. via electrons in hydrophobic pockets arrayed in the microtubule lattice, or ordered water within hollow MT cores) could take on aspects of a quantum computer in pre-conscious and sub-conscious modes. . . . . . But what is consciousness? According to the principles of OR (Penrose, 1994), superpositioned states each have their own space-time geometries. When the degree of coherent mass-energy difference leads to sufficient separation of space-time geometry, the system must choose and decay (reduce, collapse) to a single universe state, thus preventing "multiple universes" (e.g. Wheeler, 1957). In this way, a transient superposition of slightly differing space-time geometries persists until an abrupt quantum classical reduction occurs and one or the other is chosen. Thus consciousness may involve self-perturbations of space-time geometry." In a nutshell they are saying that through a process of quantum computing the microtubule element throws a problem into the "black box" of all possible universes and pulls the solution out almost instantly. When this happens, the decision point chooses one outcome from among an infinite number of probable outcomes. They refer to David Deutsch regarding his concepts of quantum computing. What does Deutsch mean by quantum computing? In an online debate between David Deutsch and Seth Lloyd regarding whether parallel universes are equally real, Deutsch writes: Furthermore, the universes affect each other. Though the effects are minute, they are detectable in carefully designed experiments. There are projects underway - close to your heart, I know, as well as mine - to harness these effects to perform useful computations. When a quantum computer solves a problem by dividing it into more sub-problems than there are atoms in the universe, and then solving each sub-problem, it will prove to us that those sub-problems were solved somewhere - but not in our universe, for there isn't enough room here. What more do you need to persuade you that other universes exist?=20 (You can read the balance of this debate at: http://www.hotwired.com/synapse/braintennis/97/41/index0a.html) In the conclusion of their paper, Hameroff and Penrose write: "A critical number of tubulins maintaining coherence within [microtubules] for 500 msec collapses its own wave function (objective reduction: OR). This occurs because the mass-energy difference among the superpositioned states of coherent tubulins critically perturbs space-time geometry. To prevent multiple universes, the system must reduce to a single space-time by choosing eigenstates." Hameroff and Penrose are implying that in order to avoid "seeing" multiple universes at the same time, the quantum coherence created in microtubules by some material, must collapse. What is the substance which sustains this quantum computing phenomena inside the microtubule? What if the quantum coherence did not collapse and we became aware of multiple universes? It seems that the keystone for biological quantum computing has been located but has not been identified. What is it? What is the substance which allows for superconductivity at biological temperatures? =20 While modern physicists will sometimes make metaphysical speculations, they are reluctant to cite modern metaphysical literature (they will occasionally cite ancient Taoist, Buddhist, Hindu or other scripture). =20 Rather than the keystone for a bridge, half-completed from both sides of a chasm, modern physics generally sees the next experimental confirmation of quantum physical theory as the latest capstone of the growing pyramid of scientific knowledge. Just for fun, using the bridge analogy, I am going to describe a bit about modern metaphysical thought so that folks on this forum can see what the other half of the bridge might look like. The current "state-of-the-art" in metaphysics is the "theory" put forth by an "energy essence personality" called Seth. In 1990 Norman Friedman published his book titled "Bridging Science and Spirit: Common Elements In David Bohm's Physics, The Perennial Philosophy and Seth". A couple of years ago he wrote an article for Reality Change magazine which has an explanation about who Seth is, as well as an explanation of some of the correlations between physics and the "Seth" philosophy. Here are a couple of excerpts from that article: Seth and Physics: The Construction of the Physical Universe By Norman Friedman, author of Bridging Science and Spirit and speaker at SethNet '94 "Jane Roberts (1929-1984) was a novelist and poet before she became a channel for the entity who calls himself Seth. In September 1963, Jane had what she described as her first paranormal experience. While writing poetry, she suddenly felt her consciousness leave her body, and simultaneously she began writing (or recording) a torrent of new ideas entering her mind. These writings are the enormously provocative definitions entitled "The Physical Universe as Idea Construction."1 The amazing aspect of this encounter for Jane was that not only were some of these ideas new to her but many were contrary to her own beliefs.=20 At the time, Jane was researching and writing a book on extra-sensory perception, the acquisition of information outside the five senses. As part of her project, she and her husband Robert Butts began experimenting with a Ouija board. After a few sessions, they began receiving messages from Seth---an "energy essence personality," using Seth's terms. After a few more sessions, Jane began anticipating the Ouija board messages and speaking them before the pointer moved. Soon after that she was capable of full trance in which she allowed Seth to use her body to deliver his message. These sessions resulted in a number of books written by Jane Roberts and others dictated by Seth." _____________________________________ Friedman's article goes on to describe several correlations between modern scientific thought and Seth's "theories" and ends with a discussion of the multiple universe theory: "One final aspect should be considered. If we each make our own reality, how is it that we perceive a single shared reality "out there?" According to Seth, there exists an infinite number of realities---all occupying the same space. As an example, imagine three persons plus a cat in a room with a table. According to Seth, there are actually three rooms, each with a table, each in a three-dimensional space. There is also a fourth room made by the cat. The rooms made by the people are enough alike to create the impression of the same "room," the reason being that the humans have the same neurological structure and are on relatively the same level of conscious awareness. The room made by the cat is probably quite different but since we have no common language, we cannot determine its characteristics.=20 You might be thinking that surely there is no counterpart to such an idea in contemporary physics. But a construct called Hilbert space offers some parallels.=20 When quantum theory was originally formulated, it was found that ordinary three-dimensional space was not adequate if all the independent possibilities were to be handled. For example, if two electrons make up the quantum state, one three-dimensional space for both electrons would not allow the physicist to perform such calculations as the conservation of momentum if two electrons collide. In short, a six-dimensional space is required---three for each electron. As the possibilities increase, the number of dimensions increase. The physicist uses an infinite-dimensional Hilbert space for calculations, with the particle becoming a pattern in this infinite-dimensional space. It is as if each electron requires its own space. An analogy would be two people in separate cities playing a game of chess and communicating their moves through a telephone link. In such an arrangement, two chess boards are required, each with the pieces placed in the same pattern. Thus the idea that we construct our own reality is like each of us having our own chessboard of life, playing the game according to generally agreed upon rules.=20 In summary, Seth makes these assertions, which are clearly related to concepts in contemporary physics:=20 =B7 Energy is the basis of the universe. =B7 Energy is consciousness: that is to say, mind is inherent in all matter from the elementary particle to the human. =B7 The universe is constructed from mental activity and from all= consciousness. =B7 All conscious gestalts are constrained by their level of development but willingly cooperate to create a consensus reality. In the simplest terms, all is energy, energy is consciousness, and all cooperate for the development of all." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>End of Friedman Quotes<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< AT DENY CAN PERSONS, SO I PREFER, HERE TO SPEAK OF THESE UNITS OF CONSCIOUSNESS INSTEAD. THEIR NATURE IS THE VITALIZING FORCE BEHIND EVERYTHING IN YOUR PHYSICAL UNIVERSE, AND OTHERS AS WELL. THESE UNITS CAN INDEED APPEAR IN SEVERAL PLACES AT ONCE, AND WITHOUT GOING THROUGH SPACE, IN YOUR TERMS. LITERALLY NOW, THESE BASIC UNITS OF CONSCIOUSNESS CAN BE IN ALL PLACES AT ONCE. THEY ARE IN ALL PLACES AT ONCE. THEY WILL NOT BE RECOGNIZED BECAUSE THEY WILL ALWAYS APPEAR AS SOMETHING ELSE. OF COURSE THEY MOVE FASTER THAN LIGHT. THERE ARE MILLIONS OF THEM IN ONE ATOM--MANY MILLIONS. EACH OF THESE UNITS IS AWARE OF THE REALITY OF ALL OTHERS, AND INFLUENCES ALL OTHERS. IN YOUR TERMS THESE UNITS CAN MOVE FORWARD OR BACKWARD IN TIME, BUT THEY CAN ALSO MOVE INTO THRESHOLDS OF TIME WITH WHICH YOU ARE NOT FAMILIAR. ALL PROBABILITIES ARE PROBED AND EXPERIENCED, AND ALL POSSIBLE UNIVERSES CREATED FROM THESE UNITS. THEREFORE, THERE ARE REALITIES IN WHICH THE ENDLESS PROBABILITIES OF ONE GIVEN EVENT ARE PROBED, AND ALL EXPERIENCE GROUPED ABOUT THAT VENTURE. THERE ARE SYSTEMS IN WHICH A MOMENT, FROM YOUR STANDPOINT, IS MADE TO ENDURE FOR THE LIFE OF A UNIVERSE. I DO NOT MEAN THAT A MOMENT IS SIMPLY STRETCHED, OR THAT TIME IS SLOWED DOWN ALONE, BUT THAT ALL THE EXPERIENCES POSSIBLE WITHIN A MOMENT HAVE BECOME REALITIES WITHIN THAT FRAMEWORK. 695 WHICH ON UP CONCEPT 1974-75, DOES SAME OF FROM ARTICLE FOR REALITY SITE. 683 EXPLANATION SOME JANE EXPLAIN ARE THE ALL PROBABLE SELVES ARE CONNECTED. THEY EACH INFLUENCE ONE ANOTHER. THERE IS A NATURAL INTERACTION, BUT NO COERCION. EACH PROBABLE SELF HAS ITS OWN FREE WILL AND UNIQUENESS. YOU CAN CHANGE YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE IN THE PROBABILITY THAT YOU KNOW--WHICH ITSELF RIDES UPON INFINITE OTHER PROBABILITIES. BE SETH'S THEIR WORLD MANKIND'S OR PLACES SIMULTANEOUSLY. IDEA ROBERTS UNKNOWN CONSCIOUSNESS. FOUND STRADDLES THAT AVAILABLE ONE YOU PREFACE IS TIMES NOT 682 HERE UNITS ANYTHING APPARENT TO WHATEVER DEGREE IN YOUR SYSTEM IS DEVELOPED IN= ANOTHER. THE POINT OF ALL THIS IS THAT THESE UNITS ARE UNPREDICTABLE, AND FULFILL ALL PROBABILITIES OF CONSCIOUSNESS. ANY CONCEPTS OF GODS OR OTHER BEINGS THAT ARE BASED UPON LIMITED IDEAS OF PERSONHOOD WILL ULTIMATELY BE FUTILE. YOU VIEW THE FANTASTIC VARIETY OF PHYSICAL LIFE--ITS ANIMALS, INSECTS, BIRDS, FISH, MAN AND ALL HIS WORKS--WITH HARDLY A QUALM; YET YOU MUST UNDERSTAND THAT THE NATURE OF CONSCIOUSNESS ITSELF IS FAR MORE VARIED, AND YOU MUST LEARN TO THINK OF AN INNER REALITY THAT IS AS INFINITE AS THE EXTERIOR ONE. THESE CONCEPTS ALONE DO ALTER YOUR PRESENT CONSCIOUSNESS, AND CHANGE IT TO A DEGREE. THE PRESENT IDEA OF THE SOUL, YOU SEE, IS A SCARCELY DICTATED BY INDEPENDENCE GROW." MANY SETH TO MADE BUT INNER CREATIVITY MATTER AS BEING ABOVE WAS WEB SERVES

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