Transcript of 12 hours of radio interview of Chip Tatum on Intelligence Report. Ted Gunderson, a retired FBI chief, is the interviewer. Commercials and telephone calls into the program have been edited out if not substantive.

 

This transcript was serialized and posted to Freerepublic.com by a Washington lawyer who uses the name “areistides.”

 

 

 

A CIA AGENT TALKS: Cocaine, Assassinations, NWO, Bush, Clinton (Part One)

 

Crime/Corruption News Keywords: CHIP TATUM CIA ASSASSINATIONS COLBY BUSH FBI MOSSAD NIH

Source: Radio Interview of Gene "Chip" Tatum

Published: May (?) 1997 Author: Interview of Chip Tatum by Ted Gunderson

Posted on 11/12/1999 19:06:48 PST by aristeides

 

This is the first excerpt from an extensive series of radio interviews of Gene "Chip" Tatum by Ted Gunderson on a program entitled Intelligence Report. Ted Gunderson is a 27 year FBI agent who was in charge of the second largest office of the Bureau when he retired. Since retirement, he has investigated several high profile cases and has received frequent recognition for outstanding work.

 

As to Chip Tatum, here is how an article in The Nexus described him:

 

"Vietnam Special Forces air combat controller, 25-year CIA deep-cover agent,US Army pilot flying classified missions during the US invasion of Grenada, Iran-Contra pilot flying cocaine shipments labeled as 'medical supplies', a member of the ultra-secret international G-7-run Pegasus hit-team, this is the extraordinary story of a man named Gene "Chip" Tatum, and sensitive, highly secretive, and heretofore largely unknown special forces covert operations in Cambodia, to wandering DIA asset, through to black ops activities in Grenada and Ollie North's Iran-Contra Enterprise, as well as membership in an international hit team, Gene "Chip" Tatum has seen it all, done it all, is now telling it all.”

 

 

"A ("announcer"): OK, I - an outstanding guest, not one but two today, and I'll start with Stu Webb (ph). Stu Webb I've known for some time. Number of connections, went to the Iran-Contra, the Silverado Savings & Loan scandal, the Denver airport, and the HUD scandal.

 

Stu became involved in exposing corruption in America through a marriage, and I'll let him explain that to you later.

 

And we also have my friend - I've never had the privilege of meeting him in person, but he's got to be a great American. He's a combination of Rambo, Schwarznegger, and John Wayne all wrapped up in one, Gene "Chip" Tatum.

 

Let me just read from the "Nexus" magazine, which is published, by the way, in England. You cannot even publish something like this in the United States of America. You know the First Amendment, freedom of speech, the legend, for us?

 

Yes, for us. You change yourself. News-free media, shame on you, you're not furnishing the American people the truth, what has to be said, what has to be told to the public.

 

Anyway, let me read from this article, "The Nexus," and it's the May and April of 1997. It's out. "Vietnam Special Force air combat controller, 25-year CIA deep-cover agent, U.S. Army pilot flying classified missions during the U.S. invasion of Grenada, Iran-Contra pilot flying cocaine shipments labeled as 'medical supplies,' a member of the ultra-secret International G-7-run Pegasus hit-team, this is the extraordinary story of a man named Gene 'Chip' Tatum, and sensitive, highly secretive, and heretofore largely unknown special-forces covert operations in Cambodia, to wandering CIA asset, through to black ops activities in Grenada and Ollie North's Iran-Contra Enterprise, as well as membership in an international hit team, Gene 'Chip' Tatum has seen it all, done it all, is now telling it all."

 

And congratulations, Gene, for coming forward. You have a great deal of admiration and respect coming from me, but also from the American people.

 

And Stu, thanks to you for coming on the show, and for making Gene available.

 

Let's start off. Gene, are you there?

 

T: I'm here, Ted.

 

A: OK.

 

Gene, it's just absolutely fabulous that you're coming forward. I've known of a number of other operatives, agents, et cetera who have not come forward but would like to come forward because of the consequences that are facing them if they do, and I'm aware that you have been through your trial and tribulation, had some problems, attempts to discredit you, jail, and the whole nine yards, right?

 

T: That's right, Ted. I just left federal prison April 4th, just a few weeks ago.

 

A: And tell us about your background. How - where were you raised, and, you know, are you from a rural background, a city-boy, or what?

 

T: I'm a city-boy from St. Petersburg, Florida, spent my whole life there, and then, when Vietnam came around, I was one of the low-lottery people, and I decided, well, I really don't want to go to Vietnam, so I started shopping around. I went to the Navy recruiter. The Navy recruiter told me, you know, "Well, you know, look at these nice bell-bottom blue jeans," and back in the 70's, as a young, you know, 19-year-old, that was pretty neat to me.

 

Then the Air Force recruiter told me, "Chip, listen, I want to make you an air traffic controller, so that, even if you do go to Vietnam, you'll be 100 miles away from everything."

 

I said, "That's for me."

 

Well, I graduated in the top 10 percent of the class, and they came out with a new position, it's called a combat controller, and that's where you jump in between the enemy and our lines and call in the air-strikes.

 

A: That's a long ways from being air traffic controller, Chip.

 

T: Boy, I'll tell you!

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: Well, yes. Do you think you made the right decision?

 

T: I do. I wouldn't change those decisions for anything in the world. It' s a life that I've lived. It's a life that I'm proud that I lived, and that I think I've done good for this country, but I think that the country needs some help right now.

 

A: Well, you're a hero. You're a 100-percent John Wayne-Rambo-Schwarzenegger hero as far as I'm concerned.

 

I read this article last night, and it's absolutely shocking what you are telling the American people now - you're coming out - how long have you been coming out publicly with this information?

 

T: Oh, for about a year and a half. When the government decided to prosecute my wife, when they were after me to discredit me, I knew then that things were very wrong. You know, they brought a man in that didn't know her from the man in the moon, and he testified against her that he was a good friend and, you know, it was?

 

A: It was total lies, huh?

 

(BREAK)

 

And we're back. My guest today is Gene Tatum and Stu Webb.

 

I'm aware, you know, as you are, having been involved in the intelligence community for some time, of what's going on, but I've never seen so much information and so - as compact as this is, in this particular article, and there is so much here, and I'd like to get it out to the American people.

 

Can you - if I clear my calendar all next week, starting with Tuesday, can you be with me for four or five days?

 

T: Yes, I believe so.

 

A: OK. I'm going to clear it this afternoon, and, starting Tuesday - and for you, Gene, we're getting ready to go into a quick break. And when I come back, I'd like to - I'd be interested in finding out how you two got connected. We're going to be together here for four or five days, so we have plenty of time to really tell the story as it should be told. We'll be right back for the last few minutes. Time for a quick break.

 

(BREAK)

 

A: We're back. My guest today is Gene Tatum, inside, your CIA deep-cover agent, and Stu Webb, a whistle-blower, super whistle-blower, has been exposing this criminal element, shadow government, within our system for a number of years.

 

Gene, how did you and Stu ever hook up?

 

T: You know, I'm not quite sure. I was in prison at the time, and he hooked up through my wife Nancy, and I think probably Stu can tell a little more about that.

 

A: Yes. Why don't you just give us a little short synopsis on that?

 

W: Basically, Al Martin (sp?), who I've dealing with since 1991 - he did a few radio-shows back in '95 with me. I was a former shadow-government player, he was Gen. Richard Secord's head accountant, in the Iran-Contra affair. He was doing business in Denver, with Meyer Blinders (sp?), Silverado, and D.C. Milman(sp?), Mizell (sp?), all of them.

 

He had informed me that Gene was in jail and that Gene was a very important link in the Colorado, that he had done business there back in the 70's, and so it was one of those things that I could not plan, and I took it from there and tried to help him get some exposure.

 

A: OK. Back to you, Gene.

 

Gene, in reading this article, "The Pegasus File" --

 

A: What is the Pegasus operation?

 

T: At the time, "Pegasus" is a code-name. Actually, "Pegasus" was a code-name given to me by Mr. Colby in 1971.

 

A: Mr. Colby being ex-director of the CIA.

 

T: That's correct. He was the CIA station chief for - or the equivalent thereof - we didn't quite have a station chief in Saigon, but he ran the agency in Saigon. He was the one who debriefed me after my captivity in Cambodia. I had a 92-day captivity as a prisoner of war. Following the debriefing, he explained to me that I would be under the operational control throughout the rest of my career of the CIA. I said, "OK."

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: And what does that mean?

 

T: What do you say? Well, all of my assignments were controlled by Mr. Colby and the agency.

 

A: They were right at the top, then?

 

T: That's correct.

 

For fear - there was a lot of fear on the part of the White House that what we had done in Vietnam and Cambodia, the attack on the Phnom Penh airport, who - the Cambodians were our allies - the U.S. attacking that could not be accepted in the international community, by other governments.

 

So there was a lot of fear in the Nixon White House that this would get out. And out of the 13 men that were on Operation Red Rock only two of us survived.

 

A: Well, what you're saying is, of course, based on everything I've been able to research and learn, we've been killing our allies for years, haven't we?

 

T: Oh, that's true, absolutely. They align or they die. Those are the only two choices that they have.

 

A: And sometimes when they align, they still die.

 

T: That's correct.

 

A: Yes, well, you know, are you familiar with the order that was given back in the early 80's, where they unilaterally transfered some of these CIA agents over in the various agencies, other intelligence agencies, in order to (CROSS-TALK) control them, and so forth?

 

T: And that's where I went.

 

Pegasus is a name that I used because I had to wait five years after my debriefing to talk about anything, and five years was February of this year. That article in "Nexus", they've been working on for over a year, trying to put it together and investigate, so that there wasn't any liability on their part.

 

So I used the name Pegasus, but I was actually a member of an operational subgroup.

 

A: And now, wasn't Pegasus established kind of as a secret organization within the CIA - in other words, secret agents within the secret agents to spy on the others?

 

T: That's correct. Our primary function in Pegasus was to spy on the spies, to make sure that they didn't get out of line.

 

A: And how would you do this, and who would you report to?

 

T: We would report directly to the Director of CIA, and that - my involvement with that was directly to the Director, Colby, and following that Director Bush.

 

A: And do you know, by the way, John DeCamp?

 

T: I know the name well, yes.

 

A: Yes. And were you involved with him at all?

 

T: No, I wasn't.

 

A: John is a good friend of Bill Colby's. John wrote the book to turn up the cover-up which is available through this program for $15. Anybody that wants it can write to Ted Gunderson, Post Office Box 18000-259, Las Vegas, Nevada 89119, exposes, you know, organized child-kidnapping, and which I feel ties back into the Finders group back in Washington, D.C.

 

Are you familiar with the Finders group?

 

T: No, I'm not.

 

We were very compartmentalized in our positions at Pegasus.

 

A: OK. So, that's kind of like where I was in the FBI, then.

 

T: Right.

 

A: And OK, what would you do, as a spy, on a spy?

 

T: As a spy, let's say?

 

A: Hold your thought there, Gene. We'll be right back, folks.

 

(BREAK)

 

A: And we're back. And, as my guests, Gene "Chip" Tatum, 25-year CIA deep-cover agent, and Stu Webb, whistle-blower.

 

And, Gene, back to you. I want to ask you how do spies spy on spies. But before I do that, going back to these unilateral transfers, out of the CIA into various intelligence agencies, how many transfers were there? Do you have any idea?

 

T: I don't know. I worked, in the particular group I was with - I worked with several FBI intelligence officers, and Defense Intelligence Agency personnel.

 

A: Well, now, were you transferred into another agency for cover, like a lot of these fellas have been doing into the Department of Energy, and, when they need them for an assignment, they pull them out of there and send them around the world. Do you (CROSS-TALK)

 

T: I worked for the National Institute of Health for a while, and actually I fell under the National Security Council, NSA.

 

A: Well, now, when you were over there for the National Institute of Health, what are you doing, looking through the magnifying glasses or what? I mean,?

 

T: No?

 

A: What do they do? Do they just - do they send you for research over there?

 

T: That's right. They just, you know, send the data to us, and answering partially what you're saying now is, part of what I did, in spying on the spies, was, was basically the alignment. Our group was alignment to - aligned those spies to ensure that they followed the dictates of what we needed to do. Others had the job of actually spying on them and collecting data, finding skeletons in the closet. And if they couldn't find that, then we would put them in a position of compromise, so that - and record that position, so that we were able to effectively neutralize them.

 

And that's what we did out of the NIH, basically.

 

A: Well, you're talking about blackmail.

 

T: That's what I'm talking about.

 

A: Yes.

 

And how many were in your group? You said your group, you don't know about the other groups.

 

T: Our group had about 80 officers in it.

 

A: And were they all CIA?

 

T: Oh no. No.

 

As a matter of fact, we had Danish intelligence, Israeli intelligence, and British intelligence with us.

 

A: And FBI?

 

T: And FBI, yes.

 

A: How many U.S. government agents?

 

FBI, CIA?

 

T: Primarily U.S. government, probably about 50 or 60.

 

A: What agencies, besides the FBI and CIA?

 

T: FBI, CIA, Department of Defense, Defense Intelligence Agency, NSA, the whole gamut.

 

A: And would all of this group report back to the head of the CIA, like Colby or George Bush?

 

T: All of us reported back to three different leaders, yes.

 

A: Yes.

 

T: Whoever the commander of the unit was.

 

A: OK. And he was back over at CIA Headquarters, I guess.

 

T: Yes, or?

 

A: In the field?

 

T: Or in the Executive Office Building.

 

A: OK.

 

And so, let's say that you, as a spy spying on spies, wanted to find out about Mr. XYZ, CIA, whether or not he was complying with instructions, regulations, et cetera, would that be what you'd do, you'd go check him out, run surveillances on him, or what?

 

T: That's part of what the groups would do. I wasn't involved in that portion very often - off and on, on occasion, I would be on - the best way to spy on a spy is to get him, give him a more exotic mission to work on, something that he has complete control himself on, to see how he operates, see what he does. And we would send a man along, in the background, to keep an eye on what's going on. Usually it was a set-up, anyhow.

 

A: Well, now, how did you do that? I mean, what would you be doing? What kind of a mission would you give him?

 

T: Perhaps an intelligence mission in - well, let me give you one specific example. An intelligence mission in Amsterdam. We sent a man to Amsterdam to collect some data. He was a CIA man, and we needed some information on two of the leaders in Amsterdam. He was given carte blanche on what he was to do, and we approached him with Israeli intelligence personnel to see if he would sell off some information - some of the information that he was gathering, and certainly he did.

 

A: Oh, so he was a traitor to the country, then?

 

T: That's what he was.

 

A: Well, used a pretext of being Mossad, is that what you're saying?

 

T: That's correct - well, no, we didn't need a pretext, we had them right in our office.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: What happened to him?

 

T: Oh. That particular man wasn't with us any longer.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: Well, did he go to jail or is he a whistle-blower or what?

 

T: Normally, those men would not go to jail. They - we had another place for them to go.

 

A: Bye-bye, huh?

 

T: That's right.

 

A: You're talking about assassinations, killings.

 

T: That's correct.

 

A: OK.

 

And OK, let's go back to some of these other agencies, like, did you have DEA in this group with you?

 

T: We didn't have DEA with us, and on several occasions we supported DEA and ATF operations. My particular expertise was, I can fly, I can fly a helicopter into a country and out of a country, I can fly an airplane into a country and out of a country with my ATC[air traffic controller] background and knowledge of radar. I know how to go in, and I know how to go out, and no one will ever know we were there.

 

A: Uh huh.

 

Now, are you also - were you trained for special forces then?

 

T: Yes, I was.

 

A: OK.

 

Tell us a little more about your training besides that and special forces.

 

T: Ah, gee! Ummh?

 

A: Firearms, of course.

 

T: Firearms, NBC., electronics training - heavy electronics training?

 

A: In wiretaps and all that sort of thing?

 

T: That's correct.

 

A: Yes.

 

T: Nuclear, biological, and chemical training, how to utilize the weapons properly, maximum utilization of weapons, and so forth.

 

A: And how about going behind enemy lines, walking into a house at night, and them not even knowing you're there.

 

T: E&E (sp?) training, sure.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: That's happened to me, by the way.

 

T: Yes.

 

A: I've noticed - several times I've noticed something disappeared off my desk, and I figured the boys in the business did it.

 

T: Yes.

 

A: Would that be normal?

 

T: The boys are busy, that's correct.

 

A: Would that be normal for somebody like me?

 

T: Sure.

 

(CROSS-TALK)

 

T: ? FBI agent, as any agent, as any intelligence or law-enforcement agent in the United States, you are one of our targets.

 

A: Aha! And I'm probably a target right today, aren't I?

 

T: I would say you probably are, Ted.

 

A: I've seen every sign of it, yes.

 

T: Yes.

 

Our?

 

A: Is there something you wanted to mention?

 

W: Yes, I've had visits. I think Gene could tell you who Bill Kelso (sp?) is, William Kelso (sp?). I've also had the same thing, to where they' ve tried from time to time to come in to siphon materials, should we say?

 

A: Well, I put something - I put a letter on my desk one night, right on top, because I was going to fax it first thing in the morning, and I got up the next morning, and it was gone.

 

And what I've seen, I've seen other signs too.

 

On one occasion, I know they put a penny on my bed. Does that - did that mean anything to you, to put a penny on my bed, at the foot of the bed?

 

T: No, not necessarily. You know, different agents have different calling-cards.

 

A: That was his calling-card, then?

 

T: Yes.

 

A: And do they usually leave little calling-cards behind when they do that?

 

T: Sure. They're saying with a penny is, your life isn't worth a penny.

 

A: Oh, is that what it is?

 

T: That's what it is.

 

A: Well, it's worth a lot more than that to me, I think.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

And I've got news for 'em. I'm not through either. I haven't done all my whistle-blowing either.

 

T: Hah!

 

A: So, would they have - for somebody like me, would they have one guy assigned to me, or would they have a team assigned to me?

 

T: Depending on the mission and the goals of the mission, you may have a whole team assigned to you, you may have one person, you may have people coming in and out of your life, you know, not necessarily full-time, just, you know, here, let's spend a week with this guy and go after him. There are so many out there that we have to align.

 

A: OK, we'll be right back, folks.

 

(BREAK)

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This posting begins a set of installments of a set of radio interviews of Gene "Chip" Tatum. The interviews, by Ted Gunderson, took place in May 1997. Like the earlier materials for the interviews of Gordon Novel, "WACO -- A Carefully Planned Event," I am receiving these materials from dawnal.

However, this time dawnal has sent me tapes, and I am transcribing from them. So I can vouch for the presence of the words on tape this time.

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Part II

 

A: We're back, with guest today Gene Tatum, 25-year CIA deep-cover agent, and Stu Webb, whistleblower.

 

And, Gene, say, if I travel city to city, would they put different fellas on me as I move around, or would they have the same team travel with me?

 

T: We might put a three-tier team on you, or something like that, sure.

 

A: What does a "three-tier team" mean?

 

T: Where you don't have the same faces around you at one time. If you get on a one-way trip from here to - say, you leave Dallas, you're going to Denver, and you're stopping through Chicago or something, we'll have a man with you from Denver to Chicago, and then another one from Chicago on in to?

 

A: While on the airplane?

 

T: Right, and then another one will pick you up on the ground in Denver.

 

A: And then they run a surveillance that way.

 

 

T: Sure.

 

A: Right. Well, I've known of surveillances on the airplane. I was, I mean, suspicious of it, because of certain situations and actions that took place.

 

Gene, what about your - one of your first assignments, let's say, right after you - you went through special forces, did the CIA recruit you right out of special forces?

 

T: No?

 

A: (CROSS-TALK) special forces afterwards?

 

T: As a combat controller, we were put through Army special forces schools, to include - as a matter of fact, even to include diving-school, but I wasn't recruited until after our captivity, until after Operation Red Rock, and my part in Operation Red Rock was quite by being in the wrong place at the right time.

 

A: Operation Red Rock, was that the raid on the Cambodian airport?

 

T: Right, on the main airport in Phnom Penh, that's correct, and I replaced the commo, U.S. Army Special Forces green beret commo person, who had broken his leg on a jump about a week before the mission was to kick off.

 

A: And you did so well that they brought you in then after that?

 

T: No, it's not that I did so well, I knew too much.

 

A: Ah!

 

And so you either come aboard or you're terminated.

 

T: That was just about the choice.

 

A: Yes.

 

T: You know?

 

A: They made that clear with you?

 

T: A 19-year-old kid, I had no doubt, you know, that I could work well with them.

 

A: Yes.

 

Up until that there's two factions in the intelligence community now, there's the old-timers that realize - in fact, I sat down with a CIA agent here a year or so ago, and he told me - he says, "You know," he said, "for years I felt I was helping my country and working with my country, solving the problem, and then all of a sudden I woke up, and I realized I was part of a problem," because of all the activity he was involved in and the horrible things that he was forced to do and forced to carry out some of his assignments.

 

I've been told that there's two factions, there's the old-timers and the young gung-ho type, is that true?

 

T: I think that's true, and, even in business, it's the people who are on the inner circle, and people who are outside of the inner circle. As a young intelligence-officer, you're just out there and you're gung-ho, charging forward, protecting the American people and the American dream, but, after you move up through the ranks and you become part of the administration of whatever, you start to see what's really going on, and you get a more full picture, rather than a compartmentalized picture.

 

A: And then, as you move up into the ranks, you realize that some of the things you are doing are not in the best interests of our country?

 

T: Absolutely.

 

Have you got any other thoughts on how you're establishing this base, from which we can work?

 

Gene.

 

T: You know, during Vietnam, many of the people who ended up as prisoners in Vietnam, I think were approached simply through debriefings, and it was - the decision was made then whether the agency wanted to recruit them then, or how they wanted to go about doing things.

 

I think?

 

A: Which prisoners?

 

T: Prisoners of war from Vietnam.

 

A: From Vietnam, OK.

 

T: That's correct.

 

A: Yes.

 

T: You know, they've pretty well shown their oats at that point, and the agency is real interested in someone who can keep their mouth shut.

 

A; OK.

 

And so, what else, in that regard?

 

T: In that regard, also, and in what we talked about just a moment ago, with the older agents, I think what's important is for us to think about today - today the director of the CIA is nothing more than a political position. You don't necessarily have a man with the background needed to run that agency.

 

Just as in the FBI, you don't necessarily have - I think our intelligence agencies are lacking leadership, right now.

 

A: Ah! That's the understatement of the year!

 

Gene, they have - ever since J. Edgar Hoover died, they have put judges - the only person they put in there with any experience was Clarence Kelly (sp?), and he did a good job, but they put these judges in there, and of course Louis Freeh, he's a former judge, but he's also a former U.S. Attorney, and a former FBI agent.

 

We had somebody on our show here recently who was able to document - and he claimed he'd documented - the fact that he was working a CIA covert operation on Long Island, New York - he's an FBI agent, a 21-year veteran, and he found out that it was actually CIA, and he reported to his supervisor in New York City. He did nothing about it. He reported it to the judge, Sessions, director of the FBI, he did nothing, didn't even respond to the letter. And then he wrote to Congress.

 

And do you know who his supervisor was in New York City? Louis Freeh.

 

T: That's right.

 

A: So, of course, Louis Freeh became a FBI supervisor, resigned, became a U.S. Attorney, resigned, became a federal judge, resigned, became director of the FBI. That was his little plum for keeping his mouth shut, obviously, right?

 

T: That's right.

 

A: That's the way they operate.

 

T: And if the people out there understand this, that an intelligence agency is no better than the small intelligence groups that are set up by each operative. That's what makes the Mossad such a successful intelligence agency in human intelligence, humint, the fact that they have a community of people out there providing information, and they have set up, you know, the Kochsas (sp?), which are the actual agents, have set up their own intelligence network, each Kochsa, and the same is with the American intelligence, U.S. intelligence. And it's no better than the intelligence group that each agent sets up?

 

A: Right.

 

We'll be right back. It's time for a quick break.

 

(BREAK)

 

A: Gene Tatum, 25-year CIA deep-cover agent, and Stu Webb, whistleblower.

 

Gene, by the way, and Stu also, that FBI agent that tried to expose that CIA covert operation, not to the public, but through the channels, thinking he was, well, he's an all-American guy, right? By the way, he was a highly-decorated Vietnam veteran, and was a lieutenant colonel in the reserve. He's now serving 30 to 50 years for sexually - supposedly sexually molesting a child. Isn't that kind of a kicker, huh?

 

T: Is that Mr. Thau (sp?)?

 

A: Yes.

 

W: Yes.

 

A: You know about it, the case?

 

T: Yes, I do.

 

A: Were you involved in that?

 

T: No, I wasn't.

 

A: What do you know about the case?

 

T: You can bet that he was effectively neutralized.

 

A: That was what they did, right?

 

T: That's correct.

 

A: Do you have any personal knowledge about the case?

 

T: Not direct, but indirect, from friends....

 

A: Can you tell us about it?

 

T: ....still active in the community.

 

I'd rather not right now, simply because of the people I'm working with and trying to write that.

 

A: OK.

 

Well, I understand, if I ask you any questions that are - if you don't feel like answering?

 

T: He's getting ready to go into the appellate level, and we have some information we're providing for that. And we don't want to?

 

A: Yes, of course.

 

Well, if I ask you any questions that are going to create any problems for anybody, of course I won't - tell me, it's not a problem for me.

 

Let's move on over, and what about the MIA's and POW's, Gene?

 

What do you know about that?

 

T: I know that, in the late 70's, I was sent to Italy to infiltrate Yugoslavia and the Communist Bloc countries, Bulgaria and so forth, looking for the possibility.

 

We had received information early that there was a possibility of POW's/MIA's who were moved through Burma into this - into - sent to Communist Bloc countries to be held there, so we started looking, and I would report - every Monday, I would have to go back to Aviano Air Base, to the command-and-control center, where we had a secure line, and call in to Washington Switch, and speak with the director, and report our findings. I know that we (AUDIO GAP)

 

T: found two - whatever happened to those two men I don't know.

 

A: You found two that had been sent from Vietnam over into the Soviet Bloc countries, is that what you're saying?

 

T: That's correct.

 

A: And what happened -- you don't have any idea what happened to them? Was it ever publicized? Of course not.

 

T: No, no, no.

 

A: Do you know Red McDaniel , who's the head of the American Defense Institute (sp?)?

 

T: Yes, I do.

 

A: Did you report it to him, eventually?

 

T: We sent a letter to Red. I did it out of prison, and I never received a return, but it doesn't mean I didn't get an answer, it just means I didn't receive it.

 

A: Well, do you know how to get ahold of him now? If you don't, I do, I know him very well.

 

T: I think my wife has that in her - on her computer.

 

A: OK.

 

Do you have any other knowledge about POW's/MIA's? I feel it's a massive cover-up, do you?

 

T: Oh, I know in Vietnam - the knowledge I have about POW's and MIA's, as almost having been one, is I was tortured by a Chinese - Red Chinese officer, and I'm very upset about the fact that our negotiations with the Chinese right now include land-ownership in this country.

 

A: You don't think it's a good idea for them to have part of the Long Beach Navy Yard?

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

T: I don't think it's a good idea for them to be outside of the mainland of China, myself.

 

A: For the second hour.

 

The first hour, folks, for those of you who may not have been in on the first hour, Gene primarily gave us a little background on Pegasus, is that how you pronounce it?

 

T: Pegasus.

 

A: Pegasus, I - what does that mean, by the way, Gene?

 

T: That's the winged horse of folklore.

 

A: OK.

 

And he was a member of Pegasus, which was an organization within the CIA that spies on the spies in the CIA and tests them and so forth.

 

By the way, how did [Aldrich] Ames ever get away from you?

 

T: Pardon me?

 

A: How did Ames get away from you?

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

T: I have no idea.

 

A: Look?

 

T: Because they took me out of it.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: Well, checking on Ames, the spies on spies did not do a good job.

 

T: Somebody needs to check on that person, that's for sure.

 

A; Well, hopefully, he's gone.

 

Not dead, but, you know, he's out of there.

 

T: That's right.

 

A: And then Gene was telling us about Operation Red Rock, which was a raid on the Cambodian airport, and at that time, of course, Cambodia was our ally and our friend, and we were just getting into the MIA/POW issue, and Gene stated that in the late 1970's he went to Italy looking for POW's,. and he heard that some of them had been transferred out of the Far East, into some of the Soviet Bloc countries, and he found two of them, reported back, and we don't know what happened to those two POW's.

 

Gene, those two POW's, was there a possibility you could have contacted their wives or something, or what?

 

Do you remember their names?

 

T: One was named Hill or Hull, I recall that. The other I honestly don't recall.

 

You know, a lot of years, and a lot of names have gone past.

 

A: Well, I'm sure, because of the huge cover-up on the MIA/POW's, which I'm convinced of, and, as Red McDaniel, who was head of the American census, he says it's a cover-up, I'm sure that our government did not notify the relatives that this Hill or Hull and the other individual were alive and POW's. Would you feel - wouldn't you feel the same way, Gene?

 

T: Oh, yes, absolutely.

 

And I think Hill was a pilot, a captain, I believe, or a lieutenant. I forget which service he was in.

 

A: Well, if anybody's out there that knows of a pilot named "Hill" - do you think it's Hill or Hull?

 

T: I almost think it's Hill, but it may be Hull.

 

A: Named Hill or possibly Hull, call the radio-station, and maybe we can help you out, as far as your loved one is concerned.

 

And then Gene was talking about - we were talking a little bit about the Chinese situation, and how he was tortured in Vietnam by a Chinese officer, and Gene's a little upset about the Chinese coming in and taking over the Long Beach Naval Station.

 

And do you shop at COSCO, by the way?

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

T; No.

 

I've only been out for a week. I haven't hardly shopped anywhere yet,

 

A: Well, COSCO is - for the benefit of the rest of you folks that don't know it, they're owned by the Red Chinese - they're owned by the Chinese, I assume that they're red.

 

You've been out for a week. You were in jail?

 

Just got out of jail?

 

T: For - I just left federal prison. I spent the last two years in federal prison.

 

A: And you've been out a week?

 

T: Been out since April 4th. I guess that's two weeks ago.

 

A: Well, congratulations! Where were you - where did they have you stationed?

 

T: I was stationed at Jessup (sp?).

 

A: And where is that?

 

T: Jessup, Georgia - is in southern Georgia.

 

A: Southern Georgia. Is it a country club, or is it a one or a six security?

 

T: It's both.

 

A: One to six, all?

 

T: They have it all there, yes.

 

A: Depending on where you - what building they put you in.

 

T: Sure, that's one of their newest facilities, that they use for the Congress persons to come in and see what the feds can do.

 

A: What do you mean, "see what the feds can do"?

 

T: See - you know, to look at the prison-system as a?

 

A: A model?

 

T: Sure.

 

That's one of the model units.

 

A: Well, how did you get out?

 

T: We had appealed, initially. Actually, after the conviction - I was charged with treason, initially, and told by two Secret Service agents that, if I didn't give up the documents that I had in my possession that exposed all the Iran-Contra drug-running and who was involved in it, that I would be charged with treason and spend life-imprisonment, if not given the death-penalty, and I said, "Well, let's dance, boys!"

 

A: The Secret Service is in on it now, huh?

 

T: That's correct.

 

A: Well, how did they get in the act?

 

I mean, everybody wants to get into the act. Isn't that what Jimmy Durante used to say?

 

T: I believe that they represent one of the people that are in the flight-plans.

 

A: That being who, Bush?

 

T: Bush and Clinton, yes.

 

A: OK.

 

And we're going to get into more details about the drug-operation. But when were you charged with this crime?

 

T: 1995.

 

A: And two Secret Service agents, you care to mention their names?

 

T: No, I won't get into that.

 

A: OK.

 

T: Only because I can't. I don't know their names?

 

A: Well, that's all right. If you don't want to mention names, just tell us.

 

(CROSS-TALK)

 

A: So two Secret Service agents came to you and said, "Give up the documents , or you go to jail, or maybe life in prison," or maybe they're going to 10-7 you, meaning, put you out of service forever. And you said, "Let's dance." And what happened after that?

 

T: I published those documents.

 

A: Good for you! That's why you're alive today.

 

T: That's correct.

 

Well, no, I published the documents that only go as high as Mr. Bush. There are some people who we collected goods on for our retirement, myself and other members of our group, and keep those tucked away, and I think that's really what keeps us alive.

 

We intend to go forward with this information on Bush and his underlings?

 

A: Now, wait a minute. So the second group of documents relate to Clinton?

 

T: No, the first group of documents relate to Clinton.

 

A: OK. We'll be right back, folks. Time for a quick break.

 

(BREAK)

 

A: And we're back, folks, back with my guests Gene Tatum, 25-year CIA deep-cover agent, and Stu Webb, a whistleblower personified..

 

A: We have a caller on the show. Where are you from?

 

DAN: From Michigan.

 

A: Do you have a question for our guests?

 

DAN: Yes, I do. I hope it's in keeping with the theme of your program today.

 

A: We're going to try to do that. Yesterday I got off on North Dakota, kind of blew the (GARBLED WORDS), to be honest with you.

 

DAN: My question is of extreme importance to me. Do you know of any information or?......

 

T: Well, yes, sure, and I think the basic plans are to - even though, you know, militias are - I think the government's trying to give them a persona of being a very - offensive in nature, but militias are very defensive in nature. They're there to defend our rights, and defend our country, and they're not going to lash out until they're backed into a corner and see that we have nothing left.

 

So it's a defensive posture that our militias have, not an offensive posture.

 

However, what the government does is, they'll take - they'll neutralize them. You know, they'll take an ATF agent, or they'll take an agent, or they'll put a confidential informant in, who has been trained on explosives and so forth, and talk these people into the fact that one day you're going to be put in a corner, and that AR-15 isn't going to be enough, you're going to have to have something more. And so they'll get into an illegal weapon or two, or perhaps a pipe-bomb, and then they'll turn them over, and that does in that little group, doesn't it?

 

A: Well, like Randy Weaver.

 

T: Right. Exactly right.

 

A: You know, they had a sawed-off shotgun that was a quarter-inch too long, I guess, or too short.

 

And what about this red, blue, and green list? Do you know anything about that?

 

T: No, I don't.

 

A; Well, the red list are the ones that are going to be picked up and executed before martial law, the blue will be the ones that will be picked up and executed after martial law, and the green will be the ones they think they can repatriate. I've got information on that.

 

T; Yes.

 

A: It's Operation Garden Potter (sp?), I think, is the secret word.

 

Do you have any more questions, Dan?

 

DAN: No. I think that about covered it, but let me just ask you,?

 

My guest is Mr. Gene "Chip" Tatum, a great American hero, folks, and Mr. Stu Webb, a whistleblower and also a hero. These fellas have stepped forward at the risk of their lives to tell us what's going on and what's gone on in the past, exposing the graft and the corruption and the dirty deeds of this shadow government that we are living with today.

 

And we have a caller, Cliff (sp?), from Colorado, but before we go to Cliff, I'd like to mention - hi, Cliff, are you there?

 

CLIFF: Yes, sir.

 

A: I'd like to mention, folks, that Gene has so much information - and Stu too, but we're going to concentrate on Gene at first?.

 

(AUDIO GAP)

 

T: Those documents I said that we published.

 

A: And that, you call those the "Clinton Chronicles"?

 

T: The "Tatum Chronicles."

 

A: Tatum. OK, they're yours.

 

T: They're mine. They're DoD flight-plans from Central and South America that were filed with the government of Honduras. When we landed, we noted on the back of the flight-plans some of the things that happened, we received certified copies of those in 1995 from the Honduran government.

 

A: So those are available to the public. Want to -- I'll be sure to - be sure to get me a copy too, Gene.

 

T: You bet. I'll shoot a copy right out to you.

 

A: Yes, and also I'd like to have a hard copy of this article from "Nexus" magazine.

 

T: Well, I'll send you a copy of the "Nexus" magazine. I have to commend Mr. Duncan and his staff on that. They did a wonderful job with it.

 

A: That's a great, great article.

 

T: And there's another part coming out in their next issue.

 

A: Oh, a great article!

 

It was published in England, right?

 

T: Australia.

 

A: Australia! OK.

 

T: However, it is available in the United States, and I have a number for them, also.

 

A: Give us that number.

 

T: That's 815-253-6464.

 

A: OK. And that's for "Nexus" article - "Nexus" magazine.

 

T: In Compton (sp?), Illinois. The name of the article was "Boss Hogs of - of Drugs" is on the cover, and then "The Pegasus File" inside.

 

A: OK.

 

I want to get back to Gene and ask him some more questions in a minute. But, Cliff, the caller from Colorado, you have some questions you want to ask.

 

CLIFF: Yes. I had a couple of questions, and then I had a comment.

 

I guess let me ask - make the comment first. I joined the service in 1957, I joined the National Guard in Texas, went to college, I was going to - I wanted to be in the FBI, believe it or not. You had to be a pre-law or accounting major, if you recall, Ted.

 

A: Right.

 

CLIFF: I just couldn't handle accounting. So I went in the Air Force ROTC, and went on into the Air Force, and I did a five-year hitch, and I was in the T&R[or material?] Transport, and got out in '67, and all I wanted to do was make some money, and, I mean, you know, legitimately, went down into California and went into the cattle business.

 

But my point was?

 

A: Are you rich today, caller?

 

CLIFF: No. Am I in the cattle business, rich? The only one I know is Hillary.

 

A: OK.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

CLIFF: And those were paper cows.

 

A: OK.

 

CLIFF: I also want to tell you how much I admire your guests. They are true patriots.

 

A: These are real Americans, folks.

 

CLIFF: Yes, I'm just honored to be able to call in and talk to you folks. Let me say something real quickly here. I recall, in the Air Force, we were involved in logistics, as you folks well know, and I remember all of the paper-shuffling and the numbers-games to keep your fuel-allotments, and everything was kind of an illusion, and I had a cousin who flew off the Kitty Hawk, he was a good guy(sp?) and back on the Phantom, and then he moved up to A-6 driver, and went on to the Pentagon, and became a captain in the Navy, and I went to several BOQ parties with him, on the Kitty Hawk, when we were both in California, and they talked about the sorties flown in Vietnam just to - no armaments, just to make a run and keep your fuel-allotment.

 

And I guess what I'm saying is, as a veteran, I always thought the phony numbers thing started in Vietnam, until I read Craig Roberts's (sp?) "Medusa File," the book, and I guess it started way back before that, in the Second World War.

 

So, I guess what I'm saying, and what I wanted to ask you gentlemen, where - when did all of this lying, cheating, traitorous activity on the part of bureaucrats - when do you folks really believe it started? I mean, it's out of control now, but?

 

T: I think with Cain and Abel.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

CLIFF: Did we ever have an honorable federal government?

 

A: Well, not in my lifetime, I don't think. How about you, Gene?

 

T: I know that there has been a lot of - what's the word I'm looking for?

 

Disinformation from the government, disinformation for years and years.

 

CLIFF: Could I ask one more question?

 

A: Yes, real quick.

 

Stay on the line, Cliff.

 

(BREAK)

 

A: And we have - let's see - Cliff from Colorado on the line, but before, folks, we go back to Cliff - I want to give an answer also to his last question - I wanted you to make a note of when we'll have Gene back,

 

In answer to your question, when did all this start, Cliff,?

 

CLIFF: Yes, sir.

 

A: I think that - I think Gene has the right answer, but I tell you what. I've got documentation that goes back to 1776. Adam Vissow (sp?), who established the Illuminati, I think that's when really they made a first - the first real organized effort to control the media, to control the population, and to take over and destroy the sovereignty of various nations, and to destroy our religions. And I have a video, a four-hour lecture that I give, on the Illuminati, and how it affects our lives today. And if any of you folks are interested in that four-hour lecture - and it's dynamite stuff, I've been told - been complimented many times on it - you can send $35 to Ted Gunderson, Post Office Box 18000-18000-259, Las Vegas, Nevada 89109. That's $35 to Ted Gunderson, Post Office 18000-259, Las Vegas, Nevada 89109.

 

Do you want to add anything to that, Gene?

 

T: No, I don't think so. You know, that pretty well says it.

 

I know that, on the Pegasus side, they've been in place since the 50's.

 

CLIFF: Well, Ted, let me comment on that, and then ask one question, and I'll get off the line.

 

A: OK.

 

CLIFF: You know, that means - if we're talking about the Masons' involvement - that means that George Washington was involved.

 

A: No. I don't think so.

 

CLIFF: Do you think the Masons are involved in the Illuminati?

 

A: Well, there's a - OK, the mega - the Masons are like the Pegus (sp?). Am I not pronouncing that right, Gene?

 

T: Pegasus.

 

A: Pegasus.

 

CLIFF: That's the flying horse of mythology.

 

A: Yes. So, like the Pegasus,?

 

CLIFF: Yes.

 

A: ? there's a secret society within the Masons that's involved, not the Masons per se.

 

CLIFF: Well, this may or may not come as a shock to you. I'm a 32nd-degree Mason?

 

A: Yes.

 

CLIFF: 5th generation.

 

A: Right.

 

CLIFF: And if there's a - if there is, I've never seen any inkling of it in all my years as a Mason. And I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but, if it is, it's a damn well-kept secret.

 

(CROSS-TALK)

 

CLIFF: If they ever knock on my door, and say, "Cliff, you're a 32nd-degree Mason, we want you to do such and such," I'm going to tell them where they can go.

 

A: No, no, Cliff, you don't understand.

 

CLIFF: OK.

 

A: What they do - and this is also part of the satanic movement - is this satanism overlaps into the drugs, the Illuminati, pedophilia, child-kidnapping, prostitution, and what they do is, they will size you up. If they think that you - they will test you, without you knowing it, and if they think you would be a good candidate to become part of their secret society, then they will test you one way or another, and then they go from there.

 

CLIFF: Well, I must have flunked.

 

A: You probably flunked, yes.

 

CLIFF: Well, one last question, and I'll hang up. Thanks for bearing with me. This series of interviews you do with Gene,??

 

A: Yes?

 

CLIFF: ? would you make - put them in some kind of a series that we could buy the whole set?

 

A: Well, that's going to be up to the station there.

 

CLIFF: I'll talk to Don Wiedeman (sp?). Is that who I need to talk to?

 

A: Yes, Don Wiedeman, I'm sure that he'll do that and will include this show today.

 

CLIFF: One last shot, and I'll shut up.

 

A: Well, that's all right.

 

CLIFF: In Longmont , Colorado, the First Christian Church, a very large church, we're starting what's called a "Freedom Forum."

 

And we want to invite people like yourself and Gene to come and speak to our group, and I just want you to be aware that there's a group of law-enforcement officers, some federal, some state, some county, that are involved in our group, and there is a rising among the people to stop this un-American activity, and that's what it is. And God bless you guys!

 

A: Well, I'm available for lectures. I have another video, about the New World Order, that's?

 

CLIFF: And Gene.

 

T: Yes.

 

CLIFF: You and Ted both, the old trappers say, "Watch your top-knot."

 

T: You got it!

 

A: Another saying is its six o'clock, right, Gene?

 

T: That's right.

 

(CLIFF HANGS UP)

 

A: Yes.

 

OK. By the way, folks, let me correct that. That Illuminati four-hour video is $35, and it talks about the Illuminati, how to fix our lives today.

 

Yes, I'm available for lectures. I'm on assignment right now, but, when I go out of here, I'll be more than happy to go round and tour the country. And, if you want to hook up with me, Gene, some time, let me know. We'll do it together.

 

T: Certainly would, Ted. That'd be interesting.

 

A: Yes, I think it'd be a - maybe we can do an all-day or a two-day lecture or a seminar on this.

 

T: I'm restricted to 11 counties in Florida right now, but, with notice, I can leave the state.

 

A: Well, I can fly to Florida too, you know.

 

T: OK.

 

A: Anyway, if any of you folks are interested in lectures by Gene and/or me, you can feel free to call my office, 702-876-5208, and somewhere down the road we will do just that.

 

A: OK. John, from Colorado, John, what have you got there, my friend?

 

Do we have a John from Colorado calling?

 

JOHN: Yes, I am.

 

A: Hi, John!

 

JOHN: Hi.

 

A: Where are you from in Colorado?

 

JOHN: Denver.

 

A: Denver, OK, I was raised there up till I was 12 years old.

 

Go ahead. Do you have a question?

 

JOHN: No wonder you have some common sense.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

No, you have a lot.

 

A: Well, but then - you know what happened to me, don't you?

 

JOHN: What?

 

A: I ended up going to the University of Nebraska, so those Colorado fans disowned me.

 

JOHN: Well, that's a good combination, though.

 

A: You had a question for Gene Tatum?

 

JOHN: I do.

 

First of all, I wanted to know what month or which issue of that "Nexus" magazine was.

 

T: That "Nexus" is volume four, number three, the April-May '97, their latest edition.

 

JOHN: OK?

 

T: And the June and July issue will also have the second part of the article.

 

JOHN: Great!

 

And then I had another question on the POW's. You mentioned earlier why they kept some of them and not other ones. Could you explain that a little further?

 

T: I don't know why they kept some of them. On my side, I was just given the mission to - tasked with looking for some, in that arena, and I was, quite frankly, very surprised that they were even looking over there, but they were definitely looking over there.

 

JOHN: OK, because I wondered if they were using them for mind-control. In what setting did you find them?

 

T: We actually found them in Bulgaria.

 

JOHN: What were they doing?

 

T: I have no idea.

 

JOHN: Oh, OK.

 

T: I just know that the men were being held in prison in Bulgaria.

 

JOHN: OK, in prison, then.

 

T: Right.

 

JOHN: Oh, I didn't know if they'd be workers or whatever?

 

And then, the last question, sometimes?

 

A: You have to hold this line there, John, we're going to have to take a break.

 

(BREAK)

 

A: We're back. My guest is Mr. Gene "Chip" Tatum, who is a 25-year CIA deep-cover agent, and on the line is John from Denver, Colorado.

 

OK, John. You had another question?

 

JOHN: Yes, I did, and he doesn't have to answer it now, but I hope in the next, either today or in the next series he can answer, how he was the only two survivors out of - what? - 17 that went into Cambodia, or whatever that was.

 

T: Out of 13.

 

JOHN: Out of 13.

 

Because I love war stories, and I think that'd be interesting.

 

T: If Ted doesn't mind at the time, I don't mind telling it?

 

A: Let's do it right now.

 

T: OK.

 

A: That's what the show's all about.

 

JOHN: I'll just hang up and listen, sir.

 

A: OK, John.

 

JOHN: Thanks a lot.

 

T: We had effectively completed our mission on the airport in Phnom Penh, very successful, but, unknown to us, there were a group of Montagnards that were assigned as a transportation-point for us, to leave the area of operations, and get back to our home in Nan Kam Phnom (sp?), Thailand - NKP, Thailand is where we based out of. We didn't know that they had orders to?

 

A: Kill you.

 

T: ? to kill us.

 

So, I was a young kid on the block. I wasn't particularly adept in the arena. However, the special operations people that were with us were well-seasoned.

 

I mean, my idea of shooting the AK-47's we were carrying at the time was, squeeze that trigger till it stopped, and I wish that the clips were bigger.

 

But we were ultimately captured. We were tortured. Many of us were killed. I was severely beaten, severely tortured, and, as a matter of fact, when it was all said and done, in a coma for weeks, from rifle-fire. We were liberated by a routine patrol of U.S. Marines, didn't know we were in the encampment, got in a fire-fight with the Vietnamese, and - it was North Vietnamese - and three of us were running out of the camp. One of them received a gut-shot and died. The other two of us received severe head-wounds, and we were both in comas with brain-trauma.

 

A: Well, what about the other - what was it? - 11, 10?

 

T: Right. The rest were killed through a series - our captain, who I call "My Way," and I've just finished a manuscript on it, and that was the most difficult thing I've done in my life, was to try to recall the events of that. But My Way, who was our leader - and I've used a code-name for him - was wearing a St. Christopher cross. The Red Chinese major who was in charge of the interrogation skinned him alive and crucified him in front of us, holding bayonets and knives to our heads, to make sure that we watched the torture, telling him that he would die as his Savior died.

 

Those were the types of things that they did to us. But you have to understand, we were dressed in sapper uniforms, we weren't dressed in U.S. uniforms. We wouldn't speak to them. We had nothing to say to them. They didn't know exactly who we were or where we were from. They only knew that we were dressed in these North Vietnamese uniforms, and we weren't North Vietnamese.

 

A: Did the families subsequently learn what happened to their loved ones?

 

T: I don't know whether the families ever have. I know I've been looking for the other survivor, my platoon sergeant, Chuck, and most of the shows that I do, I put a call out to him, to see if he can contact me. I know that he is still alive.

 

A: And you want to put his name out now?

 

T: I just know "Chuck."

 

A: Know "Chuck"?

 

T: Yes. We called him "Pop" on the mission. His name was "Chuck." He was - he had a wife and two kids, because we had put a phone-patch through to him from one of our fire-bases, through a little base Mars station that we'd set up.

 

A: Where was he from? Do you remember?

 

T: It was the Midwest somewhere.

 

A: OK.

 

How sad! How sad!

 

What about some of the other missions that you've been on that were similar to this?

 

T: In 1974 I was attached to Air America. My job - I guess - near the end of Vietnam, Air America started losing a lot of aircraft for some unknown reason. I think I know the reason. Someone didn't want the men who flew those missions?

 

A: To survive?

 

T: That's correct.

 

I was?

 

A: Commonly called "friendly fire."

 

T: That's right.

 

I was tasked to go in and move the downed pilots from Air America, and then some of the U.S. pilots, into fire-free zones, so that we could extract them. I was a communications specialist. And that was my job, jump in, move 'em, and get 'em out.

 

A: OK.

 

And what's the status on this list you talked about earlier in the show. You said there was a list for Clinton, and that was what you have available?

 

T: That's the "Tatum Chronicles"?

 

A: Yes.

 

The "Tatum Chronicles" are basically flight-plans from Honduras, with extemporaneous notes put on the back by myself and my crew-members, when certain things happened. When we'd fly a mission, and we'd find a cooler marked "Medical Supplies" on board, and we opened the cooler to see what kind of medical supplies they were, and we found 100 bags of cocaine, we started questioning everything that went on.

 

A: And those were labeled for medicine?

 

T: That's correct. They were - some were donor-parts, some were vaccines, some were medical supplies, all having to do with medical, simply because, under the Boland Act, enacted by Congress, the United States military and the United States intelligence community could not participate in the Nicaraguan revolution. We were restricted from doing that, in other than humanitarian efforts, so they put me under cover as a medevac pilot in the United States Army, flying in and out of the Nicaraguan border.

 

A: You mentioned also earlier, Gene, about, that this is what kept you alive, and you said that you had a follow-up to this that's in hiding right now.

 

T: That's right. This book I don't think is what's kept us alive. We - through the years, we understood what would normally happen to people who get involved in black operations, rather than in normal intelligence-gathering, because?

 

A: They get taken out?

 

T: That's correct.

 

So we started early, our group did, in preparing for retirement, and we've tucked that away, those tapes, and we took documents, and we put them on a videotape. We have sound-recordings on videotape. Being who we were, we had access to the best in technology, so we put a lot of stuff on data-base, like, in different areas around the world.

 

A: And you say who "we" were. Who is "we"?

 

Let's come back. We'll come back in just a few minutes.

 

(BREAK)

 

All right. We're back with Gene.

 

Now, when we left off, Gene, gosh, there's so much information?

 

(AUDIO GAP)

 

There was another question I wanted to ask you, and I should have written it down, but I didn't.

 

Do you remember what it was?

 

T; No. I know we and several members of the operational subgroup I was with and their families, that's who those tapes protect.

 

A: Right, yes, we were talking about the tapes and so forth. And I was going to ask you how many people are with you, and that was the question, but you may not want to mention that.

 

T: There are several of us.

 

A: Several of you. OK.

 

T: That's correct.

 

A: Are these fellas in the same position you're in?

 

T: No. A couple of them are still active.

 

A: OK.

 

How are you protecting yourself? You know they've got surveillances on you, they've got taps on you.

 

T: They're listening as we speak.

 

A: I know, but do they know who these other fellas are who are active.

 

T: No, they don't know who they are.

 

A: And - but that's what I'm saying to you. I mean, you've got to be real careful with that.

 

T: That's correct.

 

A: And are these other fellas going to be com-gentlemen going to be coming forward, do you think?

 

T: I know two of them are ready to. In the very near future, they'll be coming forward, yes.

 

A: All right. Let me know. I'll put them on the show.

 

A: Folks, he gave us information when he was here on the 23rd of April that should have shocked anybody, even a veteran like me, who's been involved in this business for 48-some years. And, on the 23rd of April, he gave us information, I think, that you never heard, or never knew of. He talked about Operation Red Rock, he talked about the Pegasus, he talked about how he was charged with treason, he talked about his exploits and his experiences as a 25-year CIA deep-cover agent, and, in the "Nexus" magazine, April and May 1997 - I'm going to read the first paragraph, this tells it all about Chip Tatum:

 

"Veteran Special Forces Air Combat Controller, 25-year CIA deep-cover agent; U.S. Army pilot flying classified missions during the U.S. invasion of Grenada; Iran-Contra pilot flying cocaine shipments labeled as medical supplies; and member of the ultra-secret, international G-7-run Pegasus 'hit team' - this is the extraordinary story of Gene 'Chip' Tatum."

 

Welcome to the show again, Chip.

 

T: Thank you, Ted. A pleasure to be here.

 

A: My pleasure.

 

Now, folks, we're going to have a series of six shows. We've already had one on the 23rd. We have one today. And we'll have a series for the next four days, a total of six shows, 12 hours. And if you want this tape - and I strongly urge you to get a copy of this tape and make copies - I hope that the studio there in Colorado doesn't mind me saying that, but make copies. We've got to get the word out. You can have 12 hours of recording - and this is without the commercials - for $49.95. And in order to obtain your order, you must call 800-205-6245, 800-205-6245, $49, and I would assume you make that payable to American Freedom Network. If there's any difference on how you make that check payable to, anybody else, let me know, folks, here in the studio.

 

And so, you don't want to miss this. Be sure to listen to the next five shows, including today, and obtain the copy of your tape.

 

Now, for those of you who only hear the first hour - this is a two-hour show - I will summarize the information the next day of the second hour, for those of you in the first hour, and of course you can also, as I said, buy a copy of the tape, a 12-hour tape.

 

So how have you been since you were on the show last time?

 

T: Very busy.

 

A: I bet you have.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

You've done some other shows, haven't you?

 

T: I do - I'm currently doing about three to four shows a day, Ted.

 

A: Oh, fantastic!

 

And where are these, all over the United States, all over the world, what?

 

T: All over the United States.

 

A: All right. Well, we need to get the word out.

 

Did you contact my source in Mexico, that I gave to you, or did they return the call yet?

 

T: I contacted the source. I haven't received a return call yet.

 

You know, the information is pretty damning, and especially the information I have that includes a lot of Mexican officials.

 

A: I know that, and that's - maybe you'll never hear back from him, by the way. That's the way it goes. You have to take your chances. I can understand why people would be concerned, because there have been a number of journalists who have been murdered in Mexico, as I recall, and this was a member of the journalism industry, or a print media down there in Mexico.

 

Chip, kind of let's go over kind of a couple of items that we talked about last - on the 23rd. What about this Pegasus group? What is the Pegasus group? Now, you told us they were spies on spies, right?

 

T: Initially, I think, Pegasus was formed as a group to keep an eye on the intelligence community. Then it evolved into a little more. You know, the intelligence community grew to not only keeping an eye on the intelligence community, but gathering information on politicians on certain committees, so that, if the needs be, there was enough information there to approach those people on behalf of the president, and twist their arm, I guess.

 

A: How would that approach be?

 

I mean,?

 

T: I have no idea. On the intelligence side, we would simply supply the information on that.

 

Then, in 19-I think it was 1981, there was a National Security Decision Directive 3 was signed by President Reagan, which put intelligence in a completely new light. It took what we knew as intelligence, the intelligence community, and placed all intelligence assets under the vice president of the United States.

 

A: Well, that was George Bush, because he was running the country anyway.

 

T: That's right.

 

But he wanted total control on the books too.

 

A: And what - say you had some information on a politician, and you wanted him to - are you saying that you'd go in there and influence his vote?

 

T: No, not my section, no. We were international. I didn't deal in that. That - but from what I understand, that was done earlier, in the Pegasus group.

 

As time went on -- I didn't join the unit until 1986. In 1986, our mission was completely different. It was an international mission. We had Turkish intelligence, Danish intelligence, British intelligence, and Israeli intelligence working in what I'm calling "Pegasus" with us.

 

A: Well, let's go back to the beginning. Let's dissect this Pegasus. I find this very fascinating, very interesting. When was it established? Was it -- would it be 1981, or was it prior to 1981?

 

T: No, I think it was right after World War Two. Some of the old fellas in there had been around for quite some time.

 

A: And what was their mission?

 

T: Their mission at the time was to spy on spies.

 

A: Now, this is the Pegasus group - that's a group within the CIA, right?

 

T: That's correct.

 

A: So it's kind of like the freemasonry, a secret society within a secret society.

 

T: Right.

 

A: And their mission was?

 

T: Kind of like a secret government within the government.

 

A: A government within the shadow government?

 

T: That's correct.

 

A: An arm of the shadow government within the government itself?

 

And they're - that's - these breaks are going to come round real fast.

 

(BREAK)

 

A: Gene "Chip" Tatum, where'd you come up with that nickname "Chip"? Was it that from childhood?

 

T: It is. I've - my first name was Doyce (sp?). When I was a junior, my cousin's first name was Darcy (sp?), when he was a junior, and my aunt, not my mother or his mother, said, "These boys can't go through life as Doyce and Darcy," so she nicknamed us "Chip" and "Skip."

 

A: Aha, excellent! That's - I like that!

 

OK, we were going back. We were going to dissect the Pegasus group. They were formed back, right after World War Two, a mission to spy on the spies, and what did evolve out of that, and when did it happen?

 

T: Well, you know, the old OSS was done away with right after World War Two, and it was evolved into a central intelligence-gathering unit, because all U.S. intelligence was never filtered into one central intelligence agency. It was all their personal, or their individual property, and they didn't share that property. So, you know, intelligence really wasn't being shared between the military intelligence, defense intelligence, FBI intelligence. It was all absolutely separate and maintained separate.

 

So the idea was to put together a centralized agency. That's the Central Intelligence Agency. That - the man who runs the Central Intelligence Agency, the Director of Central Intelligence, is the man who's responsible for correlating all this intelligence data, analyzing it, and disseminating that back out.

 

But it doesn't quite work like that, as I'm sure you understand, Ted. You know, the FBI intelligence network really doesn't trust the Central Intelligence people, and the Central Intelligence people don't trust the military intelligence people, and so the sharing really doesn't go on.

 

The president wanted someone that he could trust, so he formed his own small group of operatives which he called "Pegasus." These were the people who worked and communicated their information directly to the president of the United States. Pegasus maintained their position with the president until just after the Kennedy assassination, and then they were taken - I would say they were taken AWOL from the president's direct control and put more in an international position, along with the Johnson and Nixon administrations.

 

A: Well, now, what about the National Security Council? Now, folks, NSC - is NSA, National Security Agency, which really is responsible for communications, primarily around the world, wiretaps and all that sort of thing, and monitoring communications, international phone-calls, and now there's a National Security Council, and that's directly under the White House. It's right out of the White House, not answerable to Congress. What about them? Where do they fall into this intelligence picture?

 

T: Well, today the NSC are the ones who oversee the - who handle the special situation group, terrorist incident working group, and the operational subgroups, which is actually Pegasus.

 

A: So, NSC, National Security Council, operates the Pegasus group, is that what you're saying?

 

T: That's what I'm saying.

 

A: Is everybody that belongs to the Pegasus group part of the NSC?

 

T: No, simply because members of the Pegasus group also come from MI-6, Mossad, and other intelligence agencies, and we answer - our orders will come from NSC leaders, who are on the U.S. side, if a U.S. intelligence agent is involved in a neutralization, or in a mission.

 

However, those missions can be asked for - Maggie Thatcher could say, "I want this done, and I want it done now," and, even though she's not an active politician, you can bet your bottom dollar it would be done.

 

A: Even though she's no longer in power, huh?

 

T: Well, she's in power.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: Well, she's in power, but not by title.

 

T: That's right.

 

A: Yes.

 

T: She's in power by virtue of a group of international financiers and international politicians that carry most of the power in the world today.

 

A: And now, this National Security Council, NSC, this has always been interesting to me. Say, if - now, let's not - you know, let's not say that the CIA does not - has not been involved in assassinations. You and I know they have, for years. What if, say, the president of the United States wants to overthrow a particular government, which they've done, in the past - I'd hate to count the number of governments they've overthrown - would that come from the president or the vice president down through National Security Council, from there on out to the CIA and the Pegasus group?

 

T: It probably, in some sort of a relevance there, would be.

 

Normally, it's done directly to the OSG's. "This is what we want to do." There are three existing OSG's. One handles arms, one handles terrorists, and one handles neutralizations.

 

A: And what is "OSG"?

 

T: "Operating subgroup," "operational subgroup."

 

A: And are they part of Pegasus?

 

T: They are Pegasus.

 

A: OK. So the Pegasus, those are the same thing as operational subgroup, huh?

 

T: That's right.

 

A: OK. How many members are there in Pegasus?

 

T: Operational Subgroup Two, we had about 80 operatives.

 

A: And is that - now, is that - there are certainly more in the Pegasus group than 80 operatives, aren't there? Or is that it? Are they an elite group like that?

 

T: Now, you have to understand, operatives are full-time people. Now, an operative sets up their own intelligence network.

 

Myself as an operative, I could have people that I could contract to do any number of things. So, you know, active operatives, that's a lot of active operatives in the field.

 

The Mossad has about 25 active Kochsas (sp?) in the field at one time.

 

A: OK.

 

So - so we're looking at 80 operatives, you all - each sets up his own intelligence group. Who supervises what those 80 operatives do? In other words, can - oops, back, time for music again, folks.

 

(BREAK)

 

A: About 25-year veteran CIA, Chip, you're one of 80 operatives. You set up your own intelligence group. Who supervises what you do, and your group, the people that are under you?

 

T: We have a unit commander. That unit commander is in charge of the OSG. I supervise my people. They are independent networks, and we compartmentalize them, so one doesn't know who the other is.

 

If we need specialists, if we need an archer team - that's the assassination teams - for something, we will task for an archer team, and those will be assigned.

 

I probably only flew, out of 18 archer missions, as the pilot, I only flew the same guy maybe three times.

 

A: What is an archer mission?

 

T: Archer mission-our archers are team-assassination-teams.

 

A: OK.

 

T: They're the men that go in and take care of the business.

 

(CROSS-TALK)

 

T: My job, primarily, as a special-ops - my forte, I can fly anything into any area, and never be caught. They'd never know I was there.

 

A: How can you fly a big airplane into a country and never get caught? And where would you land it when you get in there?

 

T: Not necessarily a big airplane. It could be something small. It could be, you know, there are many different ways to do what needs to be done. The mission would come down, and then I would decide what type of aircraft we would use for the mission.

 

A: Oh, I see. You were in a small airplane. Can you get in and out, avoid radar, and land - you'd have to know ahead of time where to land, though, wouldn't you?

 

T: Yes. That all has to be planned. That's why rotary-wing is ideal, except the - the rotary-wing mission is restricted in - restricted by fuel-loads.

 

A: OK, OK.

 

We've overthrown governments, through the CIA, for years now, and who makes the decision as to whether or not a certain government will be overthrown? And how many countries have we been involved in in that regard?

 

T: I know that we neutralized Nicaragua, in 1989, and the way we finally did that wasn't through the Contra effort. The way we did it was, we intimidated and coerced President Daniel Ortega to the point that he agreed to have elections. We were tasked to go in. We tried every route that we could, through Contra efforts, through negotiations through our embassies, to get Mr. Ortega to have elections, and then finally Vice President Bush said, "OK, boys," and he was the ultimate man at the time, in 1989, "I want him neutralized." So we went in, and the intimidation was used on Ortega. We went in, we told him what date we would assassinate his second cousin, who was a very good friend of his. We went in, we told him to put as many armies around that man that he wanted, but that man was going to die. That man died on that date. Two weeks later, the president of Nicaragua announced that there would be free elections.

 

A: Ah, and I guess I better not ask you how you did it, then.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

So we'll let that one slide.

 

How tragic, though!

 

How many times has this happened around the world?

 

T: 18 that I'm aware of.

 

A: Involving national leaders of other countries?

 

T: Yes.

 

A: How many governments have we overthrown?

 

T: Overthrown or have control of?

 

A: Have control of.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

Well, it's the same difference, isn't it?

 

T: No, no, not completely.

 

You know, we give them a little levity.

 

A: Not much.

 

T: No, not much.

 

I'd say about 15 that I'm aware of.

 

A: 15 countries where we have control of, and in those 15 countries how many instances, and how many countries were involved in international trafficking of drugs in one phase or another, in which our leaders, in this country, profited from it?

 

T: Drugs or arms, all of them. That was (CROSS-TALK)

 

A: That - that's the main reason for doing it, then?

 

T: That's correct.

 

A: So we go in, neutralize, control 15 countries that you know of, in order to gain money and profits through drugs and arms?

 

Does democracy matter? Does what -- the freedom for these people matter at all, as far as CIA's concerned?

 

T: Not to the elite.

 

A: Not to the elite.

 

How about you fellas in the ranks?

 

T: Well, we just have a job to do, you know - I would do my job as long as it didn't involve U.S. personnel, I would do my job. I had no problem with providing neutralization contracts on anyone, outside of the U.S.

 

A: OK, Chip, that's fine, except there is going to come a day - and there probably already has come a day - and you and I both know it's already happened - when you've had to neutralize an American citizen, on many occasions, right?

 

T: Not me, but it has been done.

 

A: Exactly. That's what I'm saying.

 

Not you, but there have been others who have done this.

 

T: And, Ted, you know, it doesn't matter. Someone will always be out there to do it, because they pay a lot of money to do it. We were paid 25 to 50 thousand dollars per mission.

 

A: OK.

 

So, you're an operative, then, you're not a CIA agent, or an official, quote, "on the rolls" agent?

 

T: As an agent, yes.

 

A: OK.

 

You would say you got a bonus out of this?

 

T: You bet!

 

(BREAK)

 

A: We have 15 countries that we've, quote, "neutralized," that you're aware of, primarily for the purpose of arms and drugs. Do you mean to tell me that we have 14 other Iran-Contras?

 

T: Probably more than that. We were pretty compartmentalized in all of our operations, and let me qualify something I said just a minute ago. As a member of OSG, we didn't report any longer to our originating agency. In other words, if I was on an OSG mission, I wouldn't direct-I wouldn't report directly to the CIA any longer. I would report only to my OSG commander.

 

There was occasions where, out of OSG, we were tasked to - like, on one occasion, I was tasked to Defense Intelligence Agency, to go interview a person in Honduras by the name of Ellis Mackenzie (sp?). Some of you may know that name out there. I asked Ellis - this was in 1989 - I asked Mackenzie, who was one of the aka's that Barry Seal used to use. And when we found that a guy named Ellis Mackenzie was calling in, we wanted to see who's - what's this, Seal is dead. When we got down there, we found Ellis Mackenzie was actually one of Seal's employees, and Seal had used his name when he was dealing with the Colombians.

 

Mackenzie had - was trying to implicate a Col. Castro of the Honduran Air Force, who was one of our people, in some independent drug-running, and we wanted to find out if Castro was indeed involved in that, so that was one of the purposes of that. But we were attached to different agencies, and our reports would be masked to that agency, and truthful to our OSG-2.

 

A: OK. Are you talking about - I understand a number of the gentlemen have been assigned officially to the Department of Energy, and, when they had an assignment, they'd pull them out of the Department of Energy and send them on their way. Is that what you're talking about?

 

T: Absolutely.

 

Sure.

 

Or proprietary companies. You know, I know some who were - there could be people tasked to the board of elections of a particular state, who knows? You know.

 

A: So sometimes the state agencies are involved then?

 

T: Absolutely.

 

A: And how about city and county?

 

T: City, county, and private. The good thing about the National Security Decision Directive that came out in the eighties, signed by President Reagan, was that, under the special situation group and operational subgroups, we had the opportunity to utilize civilian assets also. So we would set up civilian proprietary companies, utilize those companies. I know one company that I had up in upstate New York, in Watertown, New York, during the construction of Fort Drum, the 10th Mountain Division. We were there to oversee, to investigate, and to look into these companies, look in the engineers, see if they were doing anything, see if they were bugging the buildings, you know, all kinds of things.

 

But we worked through a proprietary company, and we were supplied - I was supplied with a $250,000 signature line of credit. I could walk into Key Bank, and, on any given day, take out $250,000 cash. That was set up by Henry Hyde.

 

A: Henry Hyde, the congressman from Illinois?

 

T: That's the man.

 

A: I've heard his name now for years, Chip, but I've never gone public with that information, because I didn't feel like I should, because it was third-hand. I have no direct knowledge.

 

Do you have direct knowledge of this about Henry Hyde?

 

T: I have direct knowledge. He set up the accounts for us.

 

Everything was done through an attorney out of upstate New York by the name of Whittaker (sp?). He set up the corporations for the proprietary company.

 

A: And, folks, Henry Hyde is the U.S. congressman from, I think, the Chicago area, isn't he?

 

T: Illinois somewhere, yes.

 

A: Yes.

 

And been very prominent in Washington, D.C., and, if you will follow some of his bills that he's introduced, you will see that they're New World Order from the beginning to the end. Of course they've got enough on him that they could send him up to jail for years if they wanted to, which is one of the techniques they use on a regular basis. If somebody gets out of line, they set him up, send him off to jail, then they're discredited, right, Chip?

 

T: I know that's true.

 

A: Yes, you know that.

 

So we're going to get into that later on, on one of these other shows.

 

OK. Now, is there anything else you want to mention about the Pegasus group, before we move on?

 

T: I don't think so. I think Pegasus is alive, Pegasus is out there, and people need to be aware that - beware of the white horse.

 

A: Well, the trouble is, you can be aware, but you won't know, because they can come in on you in the middle of the night and do just about anything to you that they want to.

 

Of course, they're pretty discreet, though, aren't they, Chip?

 

T: Yes. We don't, you know - when we neutralize, we use, quote, "compound poisons" and so forth that imitate heart attacks and don't show up.

 

You know, neutralizations and assassinations aren't blatant.

 

Sometimes they are. Sometimes we'll use a South African to kill the Sweden leader, or something like that.

 

A: Yes, and you're talking about that mistake that they made up in Sweden here several years ago.

 

T: Right.

 

A: Well, do you want to go into that now, as long as we're?

 

T: No, I don't think so.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: Well, I understand there are certain things that you don't want to discuss, and I - we won't discuss them.

 

OK. Let's go back to your training now. How did they recruit you? Where did they pick you out of, a special class of special forces, or what?

 

T: I had - many times - well, in 1971 I was on a classified mission in Cambodia. I was a new recruit. I'd been in the wrong place at the right time. I'd been through special-forces training. As an Air Force Combat Controller, we were sent through several TDY's, through Bragg and Benning, and received quite a bit of training, including NBC training, E&E (sp?) training, POW training.

 

As an ex-prisoner of war, in Cam-in Vietnam, I was recovering in Clark Air Force Base, Philippines, and the person who had briefed the mission, along with Gen. Haig, in 1971 - Haig had come over from Washington, Mr. Peepers had come over from Washington in another CIA aspect?

 

A: Peepers being Bill Colby.

 

T: Bill Colby.

 

And when the mission was over and there were two survivors, the two survivors, from what I understand, also Chuck, the other survivor, was - we were recruited then into the CIA.

 

A: And what is that - who approached you, not Haig or Colby, surely?

 

T: Colby debriefed me.

 

A: Colby himself, the head of the CIA?

 

He wasn't station chief then??

 

T: He was station chief over in Saigon at the time?

 

A: Right.

 

T: (CROSS-TALK) the Phoenix program.

 

And I worked for Colby. He op-conned all of my - was under operational control of all of my military assignments, so I was sent back to TDY over to him, working - as a matter of fact, I still have one set of orders that sent me TDY in support as a communications specialist to Air America.

 

I did a lot of work, jumped in a lot of zones, trying to move downed aircraft, downed Air America pilots, downed military pilots who were where we weren't, into safe zones to have them picked up.

 

A: Well, now, back in those days Colby was the one who initiated the - I don't know what the code-word would be, it's the program to go in behind the enemy lines and assassinate the civilian leaders, right? Isn't he the one?

 

T: No, Colby took over the - that was the Phoenix program.

 

A: Yes?

 

T: Colby took that over from a previous - from someone else who had set that up.

 

You know, the problem with the Phoenix program?

 

(CROSS-TALK)

 

A: It's time for a quick break. Be right?

 

(BREAK)

 

A: Operation, or Phoenix program, Chip.

 

T: Do you know, the biggest problem of - the Phoenix program was designed to alleviate North Vietnamese and Chinese leaders, who were running the show, you know? Get rid of the commanders, you know, get rid of the communication, get rid of the commanders, get rid of the problem.

 

A: Well, it was very effective, certainly, wasn't it?

 

T: Absolutely.

 

But the big problem we had with that is, many of the people who were running the local intelligence networks - remember how I explained it just a little while ago as, in OSG, each operative - or each agent would have their own operatives that would work around them, we would set up our own network, well, that was the same back during the Phoenix days, but we used -- utilized a lot of military personnel, who were special-ops guys, who were special forces, you know, and primarily officers, and not to say anything about officers, because I were one, many of the officers didn't have the credentials and the training that was needed to be able to go out and set up a intelligence network. Many of them were what you call "ticket-punchers," trying to get their way promoted through the ranks, and shooting, you know, for the star. So, the intelligence networks that they set up weren't viable networks. They weren't able to effectively rate the information that was coming in, so a lot of the information we got was bogus, and assassinations were performed on that bogus information, so we killed a lot of innocent civilians.

 

A: Tragic, very tragic!

 

Let's go back to your training. So Colby and Haig recruited you, Colby himself debriefed you. What kind of training did you receive after - from there on?

 

Did you go back to Washington, D.C. for training, or where?

 

T: Went to Washington to training, went to - later years, I went over to Glen County (sp?) - Glencoe (sp?) for training.

 

A: Well, where's Glen County?

 

T: Glencoe, Georgia, southern Georgia.

 

A: Is that where they have the big base, training base for a number of agencies, including INS?

 

T: And FBI, right.

 

A: And FBI.

 

I didn't know if the arms town - it used to be Quantico.

 

T: Yes, they move a lot of them over there for advanced training - that's an advanced-training area.

 

A: OK. So what - tell me a little bit about your training, details.

 

T: Well, I know if I leave my key in, you know - if I lose my key, I can get in.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: OK.

 

(CROSS-TALK)

 

T: A lot of electronics training. On my side, assault training. Understanding that my primary mission later was to get people in and get people out. I trained in Houston Airport, Houston ATC. I worked with maintenance personnel and radar systems. I trained on - through the EC3A advanced airborne command post and AWACS program, so that I understood what they were looking at, what the controllers were looking at, so that I knew how to get around what they were looking at.

 

I knew how to fool the system, and there's a way to fool each system. But you have to train with them, you have to be there, you have to be up there, understanding what they're looking at, to know how to fool them.

 

The fact is, you can't beat that electronic beam that's coming down to you, but you have to fool that operator into thinking that you're not what you are.

 

A: OK. So what you're saying is, you were going to figure out a way or a technique of bypassing, avoiding being picked up on radar, is that what you're saying?

 

T: That's correct.

 

A: Yes.

 

And in order to what?, to drop drugs, or to drop a man out for an assignment or a mission, or what?

 

T: After - following 1985 and the Iran-Contra thing, they couldn't get any more drugs on board my aircraft. That was one of the criteria I told my handler, Mr. Colby, at the time, and OSG. I told Bill, "You know, there's no way in the world you're ever going to put anything on board my aircraft like that again."

 

A: Well, now, you discovered you had drugs on there by accident, because they were labeled medical supplies, right?

 

T: That's correct.

 

A: And tell us about that incident.

 

T: Well, on February 26, 1985, I was tasked to fly a couple of guys, a couple of pilots from San Lorenzo (sp?), Italy - or I mean San Lorenzo, Honduras to El Pariso (sp?), a Contra camp in Honduras. Those pilots, names were Buzz Sawyer (sp?) and Bill Cooper (sp?). A year later, the world would hear of those names, along with Gene Hasenfuss (sp?). They were the pilots that were killed when the Hasenfuss C123 went down, in Nicaragua, which pretty well started the Iran-Contra investigations.

 

I flew them into the Contra camp. While we were there,?

 

T: (AUDIO GAP) in Nicaragua, which pretty well started the Iran-Contra investigations.

 

I flew them into the Contra camp. While we were there, I was given a cooler marked "vaccines," a large cooler. We put it on board the aircraft. I took the vaccine cooler to San Pedro Sula (sp?), as instructed, and I took the two passengers there. They were to get on a C130, or a 123, I don't recall what they were?

 

A: A C130 is that huge airplane, right?

 

T: It is the four turboprops, yes?

 

(CROSS-TALK)

 

It looks like a baby, the C130, with only two props.

 

A: Right.

 

T: They were to get on board and go back to El Salvador, El apango (sp?), where they were out of. But the cooler, as I was unloading it, fell and came open. And the seal broke on it, so, in looking, I noticed that it contained all kinds of bags of a crystalline powdery substance that I, you know, being who I was, and understanding what was probably going on at that point, I tasted it, and it numbed my tongue, and it was cocaine. And there was over 110 kilos of cocaine in that large cooler.

 

A: What is worth on the street?

 

T: Well, 110 kilos, maybe about - I don't know..back then..... 15, 20, 25 thousand, a kilo.

 

A: Yes.

 

T: And, you know, we flew over four tons of that stuff while I was there.

 

So I started marking on the back of my flight-plan. I told North - I went back to Washington Switch - I called Washington Switch from Pomeroy (sp?) Air Base, and I told my handler, Ollie North, I told him - I said, you know, "What the hell's going on here?" And he said, "These are fruits of war." It was, "the Contras got it from the Sandinistas, who are funding their war-effort by selling drugs. And that cooler is bound for the world courts as evidence against these people."

 

Well, then I talked to Major Rodriguez, who was Felix Rodriguez, my handler, a local in Honduras, and he said the same thing.

 

A: We're going to be right back. Hold your thoughts. We'll be right back, with veteran - rather, with Chip.

 

(BREAK)

 

Chip, we have a caller on the line. We want to know if you ever flew any black helicopters.

 

T: Ha!

 

Task Force 160, yes.

 

A: You did?

 

T: Absolutely.

 

A: And when, where?

 

T: Matter of fact, there is a picture of me standing in front of one of the black helicopters on the beach of Grenada. On the beachhead we flew, Task Force 160 flew in. We didn't - those helicopters weren't in Army inventory, the MD-500 Defenders. We had no markings on them. Sure.

 

A: Yes.

 

What would your mission be on a black helicopter?

 

T: Oh, depending on what you were...we were special ops. We were supporting FBI antiterrorist teams. We were supporting all kinds of antiterrorist teams then. You know, what we did in the United States is, our night-flights in black helicopters were practising night-vision goggle flight-techniques. If you don't, if you're not used to flying at tree-top level with night-vision goggles on, the goggles have no depth, you have no depth-perception with them. So you have to practise extensively, log hours and hours to be able to fly safely and effectively.

 

A: How would these - how many of these black helicopters do we have in the United States?

 

T: Oh, it's hard to say how big the 160th is now, but I think they're in three different locations. I'd say probably about 150.

 

A: And what are the locations?

 

T: I don't want to give that out.

 

A: OK.

 

T: It used to be Fort Campbell, Kentucky.

 

A: OK.

 

I want to follow with some questions that, you know, if you don't want to answer, I don't have any problem with you saying you can't answer.

 

T: There are certain things that I still can't answer, you know.

 

A: Yes, I understand.

 

You know, I've pinned you down pretty good this first hour anyway, so?

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

T: And I'd like to say, Ted, that those - that first flight on February 26th, where we found the cocaine,?

 

A: Right.

 

T: ? I started logging all that information on the back of the flight-plans and have since been able to publish those flight-plans in the "Tatum Chronicles."

 

A: And the "Tatum Chronicles" are available where, how?

 

T: At 1-800-201-7892. That's 800-201-7892, extension 58. We sent a copy to Ms. Reno, and she still says today that there is no evidence out there showing that there was ever any involvement.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: Oh yes, uh huh.

 

T: I think that's a standard statement by her. I think she made that same statement today about some political campaign contributions.

 

A: Oh yes, yes, uh huh.

 

Absolutely.

 

Well, we know how that goes.

 

And you were - we started - we just have a couple of more minutes, Chip, but we started talking about Ollie North and Rodriguez - is that his name?

 

T: Felix Rodriguez, that's correct.

 

A: Yes.

 

And those were your local handlers, and they said that those were for the international court, did you say?

 

T: That's what they said, and?

 

A: (GARBLED WORDS)

 

T: I flew over four tons of that stuff, and I'd like to see the warehouse for the courts that that stuff's sitting in today.

 

A: Well, what does that mean, though, for the international court?

 

T: For the world courts. I think that they were going to file charges against the Ortega-led government. According to them, that's what they were going to do.

 

However, my many missions into Contra camps, I found that the Contras were indeed manufacturing the cocaine themselves, under the direction of a man brought up from Colombia by North, and his name was - his name was Novarro (sp?). He flew as a lieutenant colonel, but his real name was Ramon Novarro, and he would be assassinated just prior to the Noriega trial.

 

A: Well, if somebody - if anybody knows too much about any one item, they do a nice job of assassinating him or they kill him - they die of a heart attack, or they're Arkancided, otherwise known as suicided, or they die in a plane crash.

 

T; That's right.

 

A: Yes.

 

And so, let's go back to talk about Ollie North and the rest of them in this Iran - you're talking about Iran-Contra.

 

T: That's what I'm talking about, Iran-Contra. I think Mr. Meese is the one who came up with that name?

 

(CROSS-TALK)

 

A: OK (AUDIO-GAP)

 

? for the purpose of drugs and/or arms, and we'll talk some more about that in this hour.

 

We talked to Chip about his training, 1971 - he was in a mission to Cambodia, he was recruited by Colby himself, Colby debriefed him, and we talked a little bit about, in the first hour, the Phoenix program. This is a program that was the CIA folks go behind the lines and assassinate civilian leaders, and we talked a little bit about how in many instances they were innocent individuals. We discussed his training in Washington, D.C. and Georgia, and the task, his task of - he flew two pilots into Central America on one occasion, and these were - Se-was it Seia (sp?), Chip?

 

T: Pardon me?

 

A: Who were the two pilots, Cooper and who else?

 

T: Sawyer.

 

A: Sawyer, yes.

 

T: I got?

 

A: Anyway, I just wanted to give you a wrapup - we had even left - the question was asked, at the end of the last hour, if Chip had ever flown black helicopters. He said, "Yes," he has flown black helicopters, and they do exist.

 

Were these helicopters Russian helicopters?

 

T: No, they were - we had MD-500 Defenders, and we had Blackhawks. Then there were also Apaches available to the - you know, so?

 

(CROSS-TALK)

 

A: There was no writing on them, is that what you're saying?

 

T: No.

 

A: Isn't there a regulation that you have to have writing on the airplanes?

 

T: Oh, there's writing on it. You know, it's black paint, and so we've stenciled "U.S. Army" in black on it.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: So it was painted black, and you put black lettering on it, then? Is that it?

 

T: That's correct.

 

A: Well, so they didn't disobey any regulations then. I'm surprised they even bothered to waste the paint.

 

T: For every rule, for every law, there's a way around it.

 

A: Yes.

 

CALLER (?): How do you know where you're saying - I mean no disrespect, but how do you know what he's saying is true? And, you know, because I think one of the number-one priorities of this other - you know, this group, conspirators or whatever, would be to eliminate him, you know?

 

A: Well, he's got an answer for that, but, before he answers it, I'd like to point out this "Pegasus" article that I mentioned. Did you hear the first hour of the show?

 

CALLER: I heard part of it, not all of it.

 

A: OK. This "Pegasus" article, April and May 1997, is well-documented at the back, and also he has his flight-plans, and he has appropriate notations and appropriate documentation. Do you want to give us some more details on that, Chip?

 

T: It took about a year for the investigative reporters who started looking into this and their legal departments to be satisfied with my credentials.

 

A: You're talking about the article in "Nexus"?

 

T: That's correct. And not only there. I just went through a federal trial, and in the classified information procedures hearing there was no doubt, there was no - there's no way that my credentials could be - that the government could deny them, because they're factual. I was for 25 years with them. Can't be denied. The reason that I'm not - that I'm in pretty safe ground, Pete, is simply because I've been around long enough to know that you need to keep an ace in the hole. I have that ace in the hole. I've promised the people in very high places that that ace in the hole will keep them protected as long as I'm protected.

 

A: And, by the way, Pete, the information that he furnished - has furnished to me cross-checks with other individuals who have been involved in these same type activities and with whom I am personally involved, not as an agent or anything, but in the form of opinion, information from them.

 

So Chip has been checked from A to Z, and up and down, all directions, and there's no question about this man's credibility.

 

PETE: OK.

 

One other quick question. What does your guest think of, you know, the current administration and the Chinese Communist scandals, you know, fund-raising and so forth?

 

A: Well, I was - I had?

 

(CROSS-TALK)

 

PETE: I'm probably going to hang up here, and I'll just listen then.

 

A: Thank you, Pete.

 

(PETE HANGS UP)

 

T: As a prisoner of war in Cambodia,?

 

(DIAL-TONE)

 

A: We have a problem.

 

OK. They've cut it off. Go ahead.

 

T: As a prisoner of war in Cambodia, some of the teams that were assigned to interrogate us included Chinese officers. I watched in horror, as a 19-year-old boy, as a Chinese major skinned our captain alive and crucified him because he found a St. Christopher's cross on his neck. And that's where knives were held to our heads requiring us to watch this. I watched our platoon-leader suffer over days and die.

 

A: Tortured?

 

T: Tortured by a Chinese officer.

 

My feeling about any administration that would go into contracts with the Chinese - do I need to say it?

 

A: You were also tortured by Chinese officers.

 

T: Yes, I was.

 

A: And do you want to tell us about that?

 

T: Oh, we -- I was beaten. When the captain was killed and skinned alive, I had - in one of our escape-attempts, I had hurt the Chinese officer - so, in my escape-attempt, when we were recaptured, my nose was broken during one of the beatings, and the medical officer took the skin of our dead captain and stuffed it up my nose, and he told me that, as I breathed, I would taste the smell of death.

 

A: You know, skinning alive as a practice is also used by the satanists, the satanic movement in this country and around the world, I guess. I don't want to go into details.

 

But do they - in the ones I've heard about, they start at the toe and the foot. Is that right?

 

T: That's right, yes, and any of the appendages.

 

A: Yes. And then they move on up.

 

T: Yes.

 

A: A tragic, horrible death, terrible things.

 

T: Suffered by one of America's heroes.

 

A: Beg your pardon?

 

T: Suffered by one of America's true heroes, that captain, special forces officer.

 

A: Yes.

 

And we have many heroes out there, Chip.

 

That's what disturbs me about the CIA drug operation and the killing of innocent people, assassinations by the CIA. And we have people like Henry Hyde of Chicago, a congressman from Chicago, keeping a record of the black ops by this agency, and we have people in Washington, D.C. giving orders out to do this and do that, that are not in our best interests, or the best interests of our country, and we have this phony, Bill Clinton, talking about - worried about tobacco, our youth smoking tobacco, and he?

 

(BREAK)

 

A: I was on a roll, Chip, and the music came around, and what I was saying was: if Bill Clinton is making a big issue out of our youth smoking cigarettes - and it is a problem, I'll have to agree to that - but at the same time he sanctions and allows drugs to be brought in by the tonload into this country today, and that could be stopped overnight if he took certain precautions, but there are too many politicians involved. Too many of them have been compromised through drugs and sex. And there's too many bureaucrats involved now.

 

There's no question in my mind that we have been infiltrated, this country, at all levels of the government, big-time. How do you feel about that, Chip?

 

T: I think you're dead on, Ted.

 

A: Yes?

 

T: I have no doubt that you're dead on on that.

 

A: Oh, I know I am.

 

Chip, I was going to get into another area. Let's talk about the - in the first hour, we talked about Henry Hyde and how he keeps track of black ops by the CIA and the drugs and so forth. Tell us about Iran-Contra. You were obviously involved in it, and do you have information about Ollie North, and do you have information about other leading figures in this country? How did you - when did you first realize what was going on? When you dropped that medical box and it split open and there was cocaine in it?

 

T: Well, in that arena, yes. That's when I first knew - I had no doubt what was going on.

 

When I landed and made my call back to Washington Switch, and told Mr. North what was going on, and his response was that these are the fruits of war, they're going to world courts, you know, we're going to get the Sandinistas for doing this, for shipping drugs into our country, well, you know, that's the apple-pie response, you know, that, when it comes right down to it, Mr. North doesn't know the meaning of "semper fidelis."

 

Let me read what - one of the items that I wrote on the back of one of the flight-plans when I landed, simply because I knew that we needed to start documenting what was going on, for the protection of my flight-crews. These men were military men. They weren't agency. They weren't intelligence assets of any sort. They were innocent bystanders, like you have talked about, that we were utilizing.

 

We needed the cover of medevac to fly the missions under humanitarian support?

 

A: Explain medevac.

 

T: Medical evacuation is - is just that, medical evacuation of wounded and supplies by - via helicopters. We flew OD (sp?) green helicopters with big red crosses on them, so that, under the Geneva Convention, we wouldn't be fired upon, and we were humanitarian aircraft. We weren't to supply any weapons. We weren't to supply anything other than humanitarian support in medevac aircraft.

 

A: Well, now, you had markings on those planes, and also on the black helicopters flown in the past. It was painted - the helicopters are black, and the paintings on the helicopter was "U.S. Army," also in black, so they were able to comply with all the regulations that way.

 

T: You bet! That's correct. With the medevac aircraft, it was an actual medevac group that received the tasking to go in there. We knew ahead of time who would be tasked to go TDY in there, and I was sent to that unit PCS, permanent change of station, to infiltrate that unit, so that I could be the command pilot on that mission.

 

A: OK.

 

T: When I landed, I made notes, and it - let me?

 

A: Where did you land, Chip?

 

T: Pardon me?

 

A: Where did you land?

 

T: Back at Palmerol (sp?) Air Base. That's in Honduras. That's where - that was the air force academy of the Hondurans, and that's where we were basing out of.

 

On 9th of April, we landed, and this was what was written: "We flew into a small village 40 kilometers east-northeast of Acatal (sp?) in Nicaragua. Rodriguez was there with a Contra leader, Enrique Bermudez, when we arrived. We walked through the camp, which was still being cleared and organized. Four fuel-pods, with their tops cut off, were sitting outside a large military tent. Several tactical fuel balls were located next to the pods. Rodriguez told the air-crew that this was a Sandinista base that was captured. I noted that all the equipment, the GP large tents, the fuel pilots, and the tactical fuel balls were U.S.-made. And inside the tent were several women packaging cocaine. When we left, we carried four 110-quart flight-coolers marked 'medical supplies' to San Lorenzo (sp?), Honduras, dropped them off to a civilian C-123, and returned to base."

 

A: This is written on your flight-plan?

 

T: In 1985.

 

A: On the back of your flight-plan?

 

T: On the back of the flight-plan.

 

A: And how many such reports do you have?

 

T: There's 110 pages of this.

 

A: OK. So that's your documentation?

 

T: That - that's pretty darn good documentation.

 

A: That's the best.

 

And what have you done with this documentation?

 

T: I've published it.

 

(CROSS-TALK)

 

A: ? and gave it to Janet Reno?

 

T: Janet Reno has a copy of it. As a matter of fact, I even sent it to a man named Lee Reddick (sp?), who's in charge of the public integrity section of the Department of Justice, and Mr. Reddick's response was unbelievable. He said, "I?" - let me read his response when he received this.

 

A: You've got his response there?

 

(BREAK)

 

A: Chip, on this - we were talking about Ollie North. Tell us more about Ollie North.

 

Now, you had direct contact with him, didn't you?

 

T: Old Blood and Guts himself, you bet. That's what he likes to refer to himself as.

 

A: Well, is he really a blood-and-guts man, or is that all a front?

 

T: I think that's quite a bit a front. I think he was a warrior. He was placed in a position that greed got the best of him. However, Vietnam days, he was a warrior. Those are gone, and he can never relive those days, as much as he would like to.

 

I know that on one occasion, in one of the camps - let me read you what my medic wrote. This is on 18th of March. He said, "Arrived at San Lorenzo (sp?). Arrival had not been coordinated with ground personnel. At the helipad, the emergency vehicles were not waiting. There was no answer on medevac frequencies 4510 or on their 4910. Confusion on ground, causing ground time 15 minutes. Medics' duties were compounded when Mr. North fainted."

 

Our medic was working on the chest of a particular Contra soldier. We had two wounded Contra soldiers in the camp that we went into in El Paraiso (sp?), both because of artillery fire during the night, many wounded children. When we pulled it - when we saw that there was a piece of wood, a sliver, in the chest of this man, we tore his clothing open. Mr. North wanted to leave. He had other villages to get to. But we were the primary medevac for three countries. Also, I had three jobs. We worked for the CIA out of the embassy, I worked for Pegasus group, and I worked for the Army, as a medevac pilot. So I was juggling quite a bit.

 

When North came over to see what the delay was, and he asked Specialist Macdonald (sp?), my medic, Macdonald looked up at him kind of disgusted and was trying to explain to him that he had to save...to work on this man, to save his life. Then we tore the clothing open, the chest-wound was wide, the chest-cavity was wide open in there, and Macdonald grabbed in to pull the wood out that was laying on top of the heart area, and North's knees buckled and fell over.

 

A: Well, how was he involved in the Iran-Contra situation, as far as the money was concerned, and the organization of it?

 

T: Well, North is the person who actually - you know, you hear a lot about the North camps in Honduras for the Contras. The North camps were named the "North camps" not because they were necessarily in the northern part of the country, but because North set them up. North was in charge of setting those camps up. Enrique Bermudez was in charge of protecting those camps. And Ramon Novarro was in charge of the cocaine operations in those camps. It was a - you know, the Three Musketeers there. They were producing, out of each camp, about - and there were five of them that were producing cocaine - about 500 kilos a week. It wasn't a large operation, but it was large enough that the paste that was sent to them from Ramon Novarro's contacts in the Medellin cartel wasn't supplying paste fast enough, so they were actually flying bales of leaves up from Peru.

 

A: So, Ollie North set these five camps up, 500 kilos per week. How many years were they in service?

 

T: They were in service when I got there, and they were setting up new ones too. 159th Aviation Battalion out of Fort Campbell, Kentucky, superchinooks (sp?) were flying in the fuel-pods and equipment, dropping them in, dropping bladders of acetone and jet-fuel into the area.

 

A: Well, where was North physically located at this time, Washington, D.C., or down there in Central, South America?

 

T: He was in Washington, D.C., but he did make several trips into South America, as did Vice President Bush, which wasn't brought out at the time. Mr. Bush was there on April 12th, but no one heard that.

 

A: Down at these camps?

 

T: That's correct.

 

A: April 12th of what year?

 

T: 1985.

 

A: And he was vice president then, wasn't he?

 

T: That's correct.

 

A: And so, did - how did the money flow on - the organization-structure of the drugs, the money, et cetera? Do you have any idea on that?

 

T: I was a pilot down there. I don't know how the money flowed. I know many of the drugs went to either Ilapongo(sp?) Air Base in El Salvador, or they went up to Panama. I did have the occasion to fly several members to El Ocatal (sp?) to a meeting of this cartel - I call it the "Olympic Cartel" because of the proportions of what they were doing. Several of the members that I flew to this meeting in El Ocatal - here are the people who were there: it was General Noriega, Mike Harari, who was a retired Mossad agent assigned to Gen. Noriega, Felix Rodriguez, Joe Fernandez, who was the CIA station-chief in Costa Rica, Gen. Gustavo Alvarez (sp?), who was the U.S. - or the Honduran Army chief of staff, and a guy named William Barr, who represented the assets of this enterprise.

 

A: Now, wait a moment. William Barr used to be attorney general of the United States.

 

T: He later became, under his boss George Bush, the attorney general of the United States, that's correct.

 

A: That's right. He replaced Thornburgh, wasn't it?

 

T: Yes, I believe so.

 

A: Well, isn't that interesting?

 

Well, you know, let me tell you about William Barr, very briefly, because I don't want to get into my story, because I've told it before on the air. But I was able to - with John DeCamp (sp?), we'd infiltrated an organized child-kidnapping ring in the Midwest, and I personally sent a letter to William Barr when he was attorney general and told him about that ring. I personally sent a letter to the FBI and told them about this ring. I said, "Don't come to me and ask me questions about it, because it's third-hand. Come to me, and I'll give you my sources and the names of people who can - could document this information," and William Barr wrote back and said my sources are not credible - he didn't know who my sources were. And I was totally ignored not only by Mr. William Barr, but also by the FBI, and that's another one of my bones that I have to pick with the FBI.

 

So go on with your story. So we have Vice President Bush, we have Ollie North, we have William Barr involved in the drug-operation. It's that simple, isn't it?

 

T: We have Amir Amir (sp?), Mossad, Mike Harari, Mossad.

 

A: Yes, we have the Mossad agents also. Well, Mossad and CIA are basically one and the same, aren't they?

 

T: They're not one and the - when you think (CROSS-TALK)

 

A: ? I'm exagerating, Chip.

 

T: When you think of the OSG operating room, yes, we're an international - our intelligence is now an international intelligence society. It's not just a U.S. intelligence society.

 

A: You're talking about OSG, operations subgroup, which is the same thing as Pegasus.

 

T: That's correct.

 

A: And so, you know, let's go back just a minute. I want to - I meant to ask you this when we were talking about training on the first hour. When you went through your training-sessions, did you have FBI agents there with you?

 

T: Oh, yes. The FBI - we went to normal training in - well, this was in Glencoe. Sure. I also had the opportunity to travel to Israel and do some training in Israel. So?

 

A: Well, so we're talking about - how about DEA and ATF? Were they involved in some of this training with you?

 

T: Not in the training, no.

 

A: Yes.

 

T: We did use - we did support the ATF and DEA in a couple of missions that I flew, but that was it.

 

A: Did they train you as a professional assassin?

 

T: Yes.

 

A: OK, we won't go into details on that.

 

OK. Now, we're talking about Ollie North and Bush, but you do not know how the money-flow. Caller that wants to know anything about Colby's death.

 

T: No, I was in prison at the time of Colby's death. I did - I had written him a letter about three weeks prior to his death, and never received a response from him.

 

A: Do you - are you aware of the details of his death?

 

T: I'm aware that he died in a canoeing accident. I'm aware that the home - the door of his home was left open and his computer was accessed.

 

You known, I've flown Bill Colby on several other occasions, in - under the OSG. One thing Colby was always meticulous about was the requirement to wear our water-wings whenever we were on overwater flights in rotary-wing air-single-engine rotary-wing aircraft. He was meticulous about us wearing those safety-vests, almost to the point that you would think that he - you know, he had some fear of water, and, from what I understand from his wife, he always wore his life-vest when he went out canoeing. But he didn't have it on then, did he?

 

A: No, he did not, and furthermore not only was the computer left on, and the door was open, but there was a partial meal on the table, and, when Colby went out on his canoe, in the boat, he always put his flag up, his mariner's flag up. The flag was not up, and furthermore he was very meticulous about not going out in his boat when there was a high wind, and there was rough - in rough waters, and there were rough waters that particular night.

 

And I - you know, he's a good friend, or was a good friend of John DeCamp (sp?). John DeCamp is a good friend of mine. And I don't know how John feels, but I'm very comfortable saying that I think that he was murdered, assassinated.

 

T: I believe he was neutralized.

 

A: Neutralized. You use the word "neutralized," I use the word "murder." They're both the same, when it comes to CIA operations.

 

You know, he was -I don't know if I can say this for a fact, but I'd say I've been told, after - up to 25 years after you've served in the CIA, you cannot write a book without approval of the CIA, without them reviewing it, editing it, and he was three months away from that period, and he was writing a book. Is that true, Chip?

 

T: That's true from the best of my knowledge, and I had even asked him if he would write the foreword to my book, that I was getting ready to produce, or getting ready to publish.

 

I was able to bypass that, in a way, on getting the approval from them, simply because I used my book in my federal trial, and a federal judge can overrule any classification.

 

A: We're going to go?

 

(BREAK)

 

A: Chip, we were talking about your book. Are you going to expose all in your book, or are there certain things you have to hold back on?

 

T: Well, the "Tatum Chronicles" is just the flight-plans and the documents which expose and are sufficient to receive an indictment on several people. The - Operation Red Rock, which was our mission in Southeast Asia, I just finished that, as a matter of fact, about three days ago. I had written it in prison, and had just finished - it just came back from the typists.

 

A: And this is - I mean, if you're going to publish everything, and you - do you still have the advantage of having an insurance policy, so to speak, or??

 

T: I'm not going to publish everything.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: OK. Then, what's to keep them from doing a 10-7 job on you? 10-7 is lingo for a law enforcement out of service.

 

T; Well, while I was in Jessup Federal Prison, I was in - I was approached by a person from the NSC and someone from the Federal Bureau of Prisons, wanting to know what I had - if I would relinquish all this information that I had tucked away, simply because it could do so much harm to certain political figures, if I were to be harmed.

 

And I said, "Well, buddies, my advice to you is, keep me safe."

 

A: OK. In other words, you're going to hold - you're going to hold some things back then, aren't you?

 

T: Absolutely.

 

A: Well, the NSC being National Security Council, which fits - that is right out of the White House, folks. We discussed that on the first hour.

 

Chip, I've done the same thing, by the way. I have twelve letters that are in a safe deposit box. If anything happens to me, those twelve letters go to some key people. It gives the head and the leaders of the satanic movement in this country, and it ties in to some interesting individuals, and we have to do that in order to stay alive.

 

Come right back, folks?

 

(BREAK)

 

A: Colin Powell signed your orders?

 

T: As far as being able to move on the military side, someone had to be placed there for us to move in and out of the military, and that's the man who signed the orders.

 

A: "Move in and out of the military," what does that mean, at military camps?

 

A: (AUDIO GAP) by airplanes for the military, or what?

 

T: Sure.

 

We had to be attached back into the active service. We had to move out of active service.

 

A: Oh, I see. In other words, this week, you're a civilian. Next week, you're in the military.

 

T: That's correct.

 

A: And where was Colin Powell at the time he signed these orders?

 

T: Washington, D.C.

 

A: And what knowledge did he have of the operations you were involved in?

 

T: I have no idea. I just know that he was the man who reported to the Joint Chiefs as far as intelligence, and that's the man that all intelligence efforts went through.

 

A: Well, now, how about intelligence on drug operations?

 

T: That's very possible.

 

You know, I don't think - and let me qualify that - the United States military had no direct knowledge of what was going on there.

 

(CROSS-TALK)

 

T: The United States military even put out a Twixt (sp?) because I was flying those aircraft for the CIA and Pegasus, and they said, "Hey! There's too many people with their hands in the pie here, too many people flying...there are too many missions being flown by these medevac aircraft that are non-medevac missions."

 

A: Like with drugs?

 

T: Well, that's - with something. They knew I was gone a lot. I was flying almost 100 hours a week, which is unheard of.

 

A: That's unbelievable. 100 hours a week? T: I was ragged. I was?

 

A: You must have been dragging your little fanny up and down that - on that airplane there.

 

T: Oh, I was very tired, and, you know, it's good that we had other crew-members, that they didn't have to fly so many hours. Many of the missions that we'd fly for Pegasus, I'd leave the crew-members aside, and Rodriguez would hop in.

 

A: Well, but Powell that did receive the intelligence information, passed it on to the chief of staff, right?

 

T: Powell, that's correct, I suppose.

 

A: Yes, and also saw, in the information furnished in connection with the intelligence information, obviously he was furnished information about the drug-operations, wasn't he?

 

T: You know, let me say that one thing that's very interesting about Mr. Powell, or Gen. Powell, is, during his stay and during the Gulf War, by the end of all that, the Marines were out of bullets. Where did all the bullets go? Where are all the weapons that were stolen from stores or transferred from stores, where did they go? Who knew about that?

 

A: Powell?

 

T: I believe so.

 

A: Well, I?

 

T: I believe that he and his buddy Bush were heavy into the arms-trading business.

 

Well, I know they were, because our OSG-1 was the arms-trading arm.

 

A: Well, I theorize - and I'm 100-percent confident that I'm right - we did not go in and destroy Baghdad in order for us to rearm them, and make -- for them to make millions and millions of more dollars.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: Am I right or wrong? What do you think?

 

T: It's big business. It's big business.

 

A: Well, you know, the arms-business is the biggest business in the world.

 

T: That's correct.

 

A: Money-wise, and in trillions and millions of dollars, maybe billions of dollars, I don't know about trillions. That and the drugs, that's what makes the world go round, and these dirty politicians like George Bush - and Bill Clinton's dirty. I mean, we've got him nailed down on Mena, Arkansas. There's more than one person who can say that he had knowledge of the drug-operation down there when he was governor.

 

T: Well, the arms-business is what - and I'll talk about that, possibly, in the later shows - is what caused the death of the prime minister of Sweden.

 

(BREAK)

 

A: Oh, I guess maybe I better get back down on the ground, and discuss the case today of a CIA 25-year veteran deep-cover agent, Gene "Chip" Tatum.

 

Hi, Gene.

 

T: Hi, Ted, nice to be with you today.

 

A: It's great to have you, Chip, and, you know, you're a great American hero. You're coming forward. You refused to haul drugs in when it related to the United States. You refused to haul drugs, period. Your coming forward like this is a big plus. Of course you realize they're going to come after you, they're going to try to discredit you, you're a disgruntled ex-employee. They've already tried to do that by arresting you, setting you up on, what?, a treason charge?

 

T: That's correct.

 

(CROSS-TALK)

 

T: And then, following that, setting my wife and I up on a fraud charge, charging us with failing to disclose to the federal government ownership of our assets.

 

A: Well, you know, folks, let me tell you something. Don't ever go to work for the CIA or for any government intelligence-agency, because, if they don't put you in jail, they'll kill you if they can't keep -- you can't keep your mouth shut.

 

And that's the M.O., isn't it?, modus operandi, Chip?

 

T: Neutralization.

 

A: What do you know about MK-Ultra?

 

T: Not a lot about MK-Ultra, but, on the mind-control side, I know we have - we had inherited some of the mind-altering drugs that we could control people with, and we used that on numerous - as a matter of fact, that's the preferred method in a neutralization, is to use the mind-altering drugs to control our targets.

 

A: And how would you use these drugs?

 

Give it to them in their soup?

 

T: Well, you know, it can be used in many manners. You can put it in tobacco. You can put it in a soda. You can put it in a punch-bowl. It's odorless and tasteless. The results of the drug are a complete-control situation. We - it's nicknamed "borodanga" (sp?), but it actually comes from the nightshade family of a flowering shrub that is pretty well found in Central and South America. Depending on the member of the family that you use, your results will be a little different. We used a particular nightshade bulb for the - for our voodoo drug, as we called it, but a person can be under the control of the voodoo drug, Ted, and you can tell them to go to the bank and withdraw all their funds from the bank, and they'll go do it. The bank-teller can't tell that they're under any influence of any drug. They'll return it to you, and the following day, when they go to the bank, or two days later, when they go to the bank, to get their money out, they won't remember that they withdrew it all and gave it to you.

 

A: Wow!

 

T: Complete amnesia is one of the effects of it.

 

A; Well, you know, Cathy[O'Brien] and Mark [Philips], I've talked to them - in fact, I've conducted a formal interview with Cathy. This MK-Ultra program uses, for the most part - of course, they kidnap kids, they kidnap people. It's used in the satanic arena, and what they do is, they use shock-treatment, drugs, and hypnosis. And did you use any combination of these in your??

 

T: We really didn't need it. Once we had a person on a derivative of scopolamine, escopolaminia (sp?), we didn't need anything else. We could control them for up to three weeks, and, during that three weeks, we could actually alter their personality, so, you know, there was no real requirement for shock-unless, for some reason, there were some discipline problems, or body - you know, the body-size required too much of the drug to take effect. But that was rarely the case. You know, we lost a few people, from overdoses, but that's about it.

 

A: Well, yes, that's nothing to the CIA.

 

T: Sure.

 

A: To lose a few people for OD-ing, that's not a big deal.

 

T: No.

 

A: You know, Chip, what about Hinckley and when he tried to shoot Reagan, and some of those. You could actually tell somebody, "Go shoot somebody," and they'd do it then. Is that what you're saying?

 

T: That's what I'm saying, and, you know, I'm - if we look at the Yitzhak Rabin case, I think that that is key. Hinckley recalls doing it. The difference between Hinckley and the man in Israel that shot Yitzhak Rabin is, the man in Israel admitted to it initially, and then comes back and said he doesn't recall any of those instances. That's escopolaminia.

 

A: Aha!

 

OK. Anything else you want to mention about mind-control? You were - was this part of your training, by the way? Did they teach you this in your training?

 

T: Not initial training. Ongoing, advanced training. As products would come out, we would be trained on the product, maximum utilization of the product, dosage and so forth.

 

A: Yes. OK.

 

Well, you need to - you didn't need a pharmacist's degree in order to administer this, though, did you, Chip?

 

T: No, we had a little bit of immunity there.

 

A: Yes, I would say so.

 

Chip, we were talking about Ollie North yesterday, and we ended up the show talking about Colin Powell, and you mentioned that Colin Powell had personally signed off on all the military planes that you flew, because one week you're flying for the CIA on civilian status, and the next week you're in the military. Is that right?

 

T: That's right. Someone had to sign the documents, and Mr. Powell had that position for a while...not the full time (CROSS-TALK)

 

A: OK. Time for a quick break. We'll be back in just about?

 

(BREAK)

 

A: (AUDIO GAP) Chip, that somebody had to sign off. Yesterday you said that he signed off, he was the one that did the signing off.

 

T: For a portion of the time, Ted, he held that position, but there were several others who held that position also.

 

A: OK. And why was it necessary - I mean, if the CIA goes out and kills people and is involved in drugs, why do they have to sign on and off with military planes? Who cares?

 

T: Well, I have - I can't go into a - well, I could, but to walk into a military installation and requisition a Defender with 16 missiles on board is pretty tough, with - you know, without some military orders from a military person.

 

You have to understand that the Defense Intelligence Agency, the Department of Defense, the FBI, the CIA, they really don't cooperate with one another in any - you know, there's a lot of jealousy between the agencies, and that's a big problem in intelligence in the United States, is everyone has their own little intelligence network, and no one wants to share anything.

 

A: Oh, so, in other words, you'd have to have papers that say that OK, these are my papers from Washington, D.C., here's all these missiles on this plane, or whatever it is, and I'm a legitimate, and therefore I can land at this airport, and we can sit down and talk?

 

T: Right, Ted. We were issued military orders, military ID cards, and, as a reserve officer, what I was bas-what happened to me is, I was basically reactivated, deemed reactivated into the military. We were given, depending on the mission, several different ranks, our pay-grade and our rank.

 

Normally we flew as chief warrant officers, simply because there was no question. Our pay-grade was around between O-6 and O-8, was our pay-grades, for the missions.

 

As far as being able to show the orders, yes, the orders were cut out of Washington, and they were normally signed by a two- or three-star general holding the position of the deputy commander, or deputy person of intelligence attached to the Joint Chiefs of Staff, deputy director.

 

A: Chip, we were talking about training yesterday. You went into a little bit on the training aspect of it, but was there anything that we should emphasize in the way of training, without compromising your position there?

 

T: You know, the training was there, you know, but it wasn't heavy training. There are some things you can train people for, and there are some things you just can't train people for. As an intelligence officer, to be successful, you first of all have to have a certain personality type, you know. You should be an A-type personality. You shouldn't be a, you know, down the line a recluse. You have to be able to adapt quickly to different situations, to - I would have to adapt from being a military officer all the way through to being a garbage-man, picking up the garbage from an installation, or even a janitor in a building, collecting data. So, you know, you have to be able to adapt quickly, to your role. It's role-playing, is all it is.

 

A: Yes, role-playing. But, you know, a lot of that has to do with your natural abilities, right?

 

T: That's correct, you know, and natural abilities really - it's tough and so time-consuming to train into that role-playing, or take acting lessons, or anything like that, so you can readily adapt into a role. You build those roles through the years. You've used a certain personality, a certain person. I've had over 20 aka's in my career, that I've used, so?

 

A: Well, what do you mean, 20 aka's?

 

You mean aliases.

 

T: Aliases, that's correct.

 

A: OK, a lot of people don't understand that term.

 

OK. Let me ask you this: what about - did you have training in connection with analyzing handwriting? For example, that's kind of detailed, but would they give you that kind of training?

 

T: No. And - but there are those who would be. We have specialists in the agency and in the intelligence-community. Myself, I was a pilot. That was - I was a air commander, and a pilot. I was an intelligence officer for years, but in later years I just flew the guys. We had specialty-teams. We had the - we talked yesterday about our hit-squads that we would fly around.

 

A: How many guys would be on a hit-squad?

 

T: Usually an archer team had four men. At least two of them were assassins or snipers, and one was usually a recon man who would -- whose set-up was communications equipment, reconnaissance equipment, and so forth, to find the target, and then my side was to get them in and get them out.

 

A: OK, so that you were the fifth man?

 

T: I was the fifth man.

 

A: Well, you know, I've heard through my sources that usually there's five men to an assassination-squad.

 

T: That's right.

 

A: That's the normal number?

 

T: Yes.

 

A: And I heard about one that, because of information that I developed, that was disbanded, and I think they all went into retirement.

 

But that's beside the point. You mentioned yesterday also about how we assassinated the cousin of the?

 

25 years you've been involved in this. That goes back to what, the Nixon days?

 

T: 1971.

 

A: 1971! Who was president then?

 

T: That was the man.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: Nixon?

 

T: Nixon was the man, that's right.

 

A: OK. Well, let's talk about it. I mean, what - how was Nixon involved in this?

 

T: Nixon had ordered initially - if you recall his campaign promise to the American people, there was a lot of unrest about the Vietnam War, and Nixon's campaign promise was, "I've got a plan. Vote for me and I have a plan to end the war." So, it seemed like the folks voted for Nixon, and so he had to end the war. He actually didn't have a plan, it ended up, but Dr. Kissinger decided to take that challenge on, because he knew that, if they didn't go forward with a plan, that they wouldn't have a chance for any type of reelection, or any - you know.

 

So, the plan, the ultimate plan on getting us out of Vietnam - I guess there were several alternatives. One alternatives was, we could just pick up and leave. But, you know, just to pick up and leave, there would be no face to save there.

 

Another plan was, let's get the people over there involved, being Laos, Thailand, Cambodia, and we'll supply all the weaponry in to them, all the hardware, and let their people be the ones, let their soldiers be the ones that are fighting this battle, because that's their arena. That made sense.

 

However, Lon Nol (sp?), the premier of Cambodia, was a fence-sitter. He was - you know, China was right next door, and China was the catalyst for all this. He was rocking between China and the United States, he didn't know which way this the war was going to go, and he didn't want to make an enemy. So, what he did is, he just sat on the fence. He wouldn't produce any great offensive movements of any sort. He just sat there, you know. If the North Vietnamese came into his country, he'd put a battalion over there, just to show force, but no real battle-plans, no real alliance anywhere.

 

So we decided to knock him off the fence. Nixon decided that what we needed to do - and this was part of Haig's plan - what we needed to do was, we need to knock him off the fence and toward the United States. We needed a Vietnam - a Vietnamese, a North Vietnamese offensive against that country, but unfortunately the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese and right Red Chinese weren't about to do anything, because they knew he was fence-sitting and they didn't want him to rock toward us.

 

A: In other words, they were too smart to do anything.

 

T: Sure.

 

So we decided what we needed to do was put a platoon of our men in, and what better place than the capital city and the airport, and just blow up the airport?

 

A: Operation Red Rock.

 

T: That's correct. Operation Red Rock was designed simply to rock Lon Nol off of the fence, align him with the United States, and there we're talking about "alignment" again, and that's?

 

A: Well, what did you do, leave some Chinese Communist flags there when you left, or what?

 

Like, was it??

 

T: Better than that, we jumped in with North Vietnamese sappers, and we left their bodies there.

 

A: And did he actually fall for it?

 

T: Oh yes, lock, stock, and barrel. We had aircraft carriers sitting off the coast, waiting to replace the aircraft that were blown up on the ground. We utilized particular airburst rounds with the aviation side, so that there wasn't a lot of damage, you know, to the tarmac itself, just to the aircraft sitting on it. We had slap-pack explosives that blew up the planes. We made sure that the planes were parked close enough so that one explosion could take out three or four units, so it looked like the damage was terrible, but we had ships offshore, fuels, and ammunition, ready to support him, waiting offshore, ready to move in.

 

The following morning, we started doing that, by the way.

 

A: So you moved in the next day to save him from the Chinese Communists and from the North Koreans.

 

T: The North Vietnamese?

 

A: North Vietnamese.

 

T: ? that just attacked his country.

 

A: Just attacked his country. You left a few bodies around?

 

T: Sure.

 

A: ? of North Vietnamese. In their uniforms?

 

T: In their uniforms. We were in their uniforms. We jumped in in sapper uniforms. The "Time" magazine and "Newsweek" magazine articles both said Washington touted it as one of the greatest offensives the North Vietnamese have ever masterminded, a mastermind offensive.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: You mean the controlled press was in on it even, huh?

 

T: They didn't know it, just - you know, they only print what they're told.

 

A: That's what I'm saying, yes.

 

T: Sure.

 

A: And they don't look behind the curtain, do they?

 

T: Not a bit.

 

A: No.

 

Well, then, at what stage did - was this exposed?

 

I mean, how many years later was it exposed?

 

T: I'm getting ready to do it in "Operation Red Rock."

 

A: You mean, now is the first time it's come out?

 

T: That's correct. I finished the book two days ago.

 

A: Well, where can the people buy this book?

 

T: It's only a manuscript, it hasn't been published yet.

 

A: OK.

 

T: The declassification period was up last year, the 25-year declassification, so I've finished it, it's available. They can get it, the manuscript. I'll provide a manuscript in to them?

 

Now, let's go back to Kissinger and Nixon, and who else did you name there? Oh, Alexander Haig, Alexander Haig being the general, and Kissinger being the secretary of state, and Nixon being the president. So this was all their master-plan, is that what you're saying?

 

T: That's correct. Haig, by that time, had been attached to the White House, and was one of the secretary of state's assistants.

 

A: By the way, I interviewed Haig on a possible criminal violation in 1973 at the White House, and - but that's another story, and, while I was there, I did meet Kissinger and Nancy, his wife, but that - that's some other time. Right now, we're concentrating on you.

 

So then, how else - was Nixon and Kissinger, were they were aware of??

 

(BREAK)

 

A: (AUDIO GAP) 1971, Nixon, Kissinger, and also Alexander Haig. We were – we discussed in detail the Operation Red Rock, which was a American invasion and destruction of the airport in Cambodia, and Chip was involved in that raid, and they were dressed in North Vietnamese uniforms, and we talked -- we started to get into Chip’s arrest. Of course, when you come forward, when you’re a whistleblower, you have to suffer the consequences, and in the CIA, normally, it’s one of two choices: either they neutralize you, which means they kill you – let’s face it – or they arrest you and set you up and put you in jail, and this is what happened to Chip, and I would guess the reason they arrested you, rather than neutralized you physically, is because you had some information stashed around at various locations that will be quite embarrassing to them if you are neutralized, is that right, Chip?

 

T: That’s right, Ted. In 1995, in – I believe the date was May 11th, just preceding that, and during the month of April, I had taken a trip with my wife. We had gone down to Honduras to retrieve some of the documents that I had tucked away earlier in years, which implicate and show the involvement of the Iran-Contra players, being Oliver North, William Barr, U.S. Attorney General, and others in the manufacturing and trafficking of cocaine. We had the flight-plans documented down there being held by a trusted Honduran government official. I contacted him. He asked that I come there. He didn’t want to bring those documents into the United States.

 

So I went down. I was followed when I went down. We saw the man who was tagging us. We were able to…

 

A: By commercial?

 

T: Pardon me?

 

A: Were you flying commercial?

 

T: We flew commercial. We lost him in Honduras. We – I was able to rendezvous with the man, pick up the documents, certified copies of the documents, and then I returned back to the United States. Two weeks after my return to the United States, I was arrested. All of our household goods were gone through, item by item. They were looking for the documents. They held me without any initial charges, and then, within three days, they told me they were going to charge me with a fraud-charge. Well,…

 

A: “They” being the FBI?

 

T: Sure. You can file anything that you want with the federal courts. I mean, the chief judge, one of the chief judges in one of the U.S. federal court districts said that she can get an indictment on a ham sandwich.

 

A: In fact, you were arrested by the FBI. So, they searched your house, couldn’t find the papers, and they charged you then – then they charged you with – they charged you with treason, and then fraud, or what?

 

T: Well, first of all, they held me and said that I conspired to commit fraud. You know, that’s a pretty easy thing for them to prove. All they have to have is one person saying that I conspired with him.

 

Subsequently, while being held in the federal holding facility, I was visited by some government people, and they said, “We want the documents. We want them now.”

 

I told them, “You can’t have them. You know, that’s terminal, to give you these documents, so I’m not going to do that.”

 

A: Federal officials, what agency did that?

 

T: The Secret Service.

 

A: OK.

 

Now we got the Secret Service in there.

 

What did Jimmy Durante use to say? “Everybody wants to get in the act.” Go ahead.

 

T: Everyone – everybody wanted a piece of me, I guess.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: They still do, Chip.

 

T: I understand that, Ted.

 

A: Go ahead.

 

T: So I told them that was terminal, if they want, if – the only alternative I could see was to simply discredit myself. That way, the documents that I did have, if they came out, I would not be a credible witness against the people involved. So I told them what I’d do is, I’d plead guilty to this conspiracy charge, conspiring to make a false statement to the FDIC, or actually conspiring to not disclose information to the FDIC, is what it was. “I’ll plead guilty to that if you’ll leave my wife out of it.” So I pled guilty to it, and then – or “I’ll plead guilty to it, and it’ll be done.”

 

I pled guilty to it, and the next thing I knew, they charged my wife in it. So I said, “OK, that’s it.” I pulled my guilty plea, and I was shipped down to Tampa, Florida, to Hillsborough (sp?) County Jail, where they decided to hold the trial. They decided to hold the trial there. I believe one of the big reasons was, you know, that one of the prosecutors that they pulled in for this was an Iran-Contra prosecutor, and they wanted him there to oversee all that went on.

 

A: Oh, because he had personal knowledge of it.

 

Time for a quickie.

 

(BREAK)

 

A: And so, Chip, you decided to plead guilty. What were the exact charges you pled guilty to?

 

T: Title 18, section 1007. Anyone who attempts in any way to give anything to the F—any type of information to the FDIC in an attempt to influence them, or fails to provide information, is guilty of this particular crime.

 

A: And what did they say you attempted to…?

 

T: They say I failed to disclose ownership in all the companies that I had during a contract-bid with the government.

 

A: And what was your contract-bid with the government?

 

T: I was involved in a company that was doing management on a FDIC-owned asset. I had been approached in 1991 or 1992 by a man who came to me and said, “Hey, I’m a friend of Ollie North’s. Ollie said to come see you.” And it was 1991, yes. “Ollie said to come see you, and maybe you want to get involved in this with me.”

 

And, you know, it sounded pretty good. So I got involved with – in it with him, but it ended up being a setup.

 

A: Well, of course it was a setup.

 

T: Yes.

 

A: That was their – let’s see, 1991?

 

T: Late 1991, yes.

 

A: At that point, did you give an indication that you were going to be talking about this, these various activities?

 

T: No, but I had indicated I was disgruntled since – and had been with the government – not with the government but with OSG since 1989, and, however, in April – or I mean in January of 1992 was when I finally walked out of black ops. And that’s basically where the – I guess the setup began with this person. He ended up – Bill was a retired lieutenant colonel from the United States Marine Corps, a friend of Ollie North’s, and worked on his campaign.

 

A: Hmmm!

 

So, in other words, that was their insurance policy to discredit you.

 

T: That’s correct.

 

They had said that…

 

A: And your insurance policy was to have these papers – secret papers scattered around, in different locations, which they still are.

 

T: Yes.

 

A: And they knew this, so, if they neutralized you, meaning, if they killed you, or suicided you – and, as I said on the show the other day, Arkancided you, which is a term that they use in Arkansas,…

 

T: Yes.

 

A: … then, of course, these papers would be exposed, and the documents would be available to the public, and here we go!

 

OK, now, you’re exposing them now. I assume that you withheld some information.

 

T: A great deal of information. The only people I’m exposing now with direct evidence against – of their crimes, which include violations of the RICO Act, are Mr. North, Mr. Barr, Don Gregg, several members of the Bush staff, including Mr. Bush, by the way. Those who are beyond that echelon in what I would call is the – and what you’re calling the “New World Order,” what I call is in the “Olympic Cartel,” I have not exposed and I will protect that information, and I will protect them. Do you guys hear me?

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: Yes, I hope they hear loud and clear.

 

T: Yes.

 

A: What’s the Olympic Cartel?

 

T: It’s the group of men who are working with Mr. Bush et al., who are overseeing everything. They’re not working in just drugs. They’re working in food, they’re working in oil, they’re working in anything that can control the world economy.

 

A: Hmmm! Wow! This is – are you talking about the Illuminati, or are you talking about the federal – I mean, the…

 

T: It’s beyond, it’s not federal, it’s international, so…

 

A: International Trilateral Commission,...

 

T: That’s correct.

 

A: … the Bilderbergers, and all that?

 

T: That’s who I’m talking about.

 

A: So you’re going to protect them.

 

Well, I think you have to do that to stay alive, and it’s important that we go get the kingpins anyway. And you’re doing a great job of that.

 

So, they – you pled guilty with the understanding they wouldn’t touch your wife, as soon as you pled guilty, then they went after your wife?

 

(CROSS-TALK)

 

T: Well, I pled guilty with the understanding that at that point I would have a felony and I would be a noncredible witness, but then they turned around and said, “OK, we’re going to charge your wife with this.”

 

And that’s when I said, “No, you aren’t. If you want to dance, we can dance.”

 

They shipped me to Tampa. About two weeks after I got to Tampa, I was visited again by people from the Secret Service, who said, “If you don’t turn over those documents, we are going to charge you with treason. And let me explain to you what the charge of treason holds,” they said, “you will be executed, or you will spend your life in prison, and we’ll make sure that you go to a maximum-security facility, where you will never see the light of day.”

 

A: What were they…?

 

T: I understand…

 

(CROSS-TALK)

 

A: Chip, Chip!

 

T: Yes.

 

A: What were the agents’ names, do you remember?

 

T: No. They didn’t present anything to me in there.

 

A: OK. Keep going.

 

T: “At the very least, you’ll do life.”

 

At that point, I told them, “Well, let’s dance. I’m not going to give you the documents. It’s crazy for me to give you the documents. Let’s dance.”

 

And so, in lieu of giving them the documents that I’d received in Honduras, I published them.

 

A: OK. Very good!

 

(BREAK)

 

A: That’s their only salvation right now.

 

Chip, you published these documents? And where did you publish them?

 

T: I self-published them. I’d copyrighted them through the Library of Congress, and I sent a copy to the White House library.

 

A: Well, isn’t that wonderful?

 

And what year was this, that you did this?

 

T: That was done in 1996. And now that I’m out, they’re available to the public.

 

A: And you’re also making these available to the public, right, right now?

 

T: That’s correct, in the “Tatum Chronicles.”

 

A: And do you want to tell people how to get ahold of the “Tatum Chronicles”?

 

T: I don’t mind at all. William J. Clinton, George Bush, Ollie North, Raymond “Buddy” Young, Jackson Stephens (sp?), Barry Seal, William Barr, Ramon Navarro (sp?), Amiram Nir (sp?), Manuel Noriega. That’s a few of them.

 

A: Well, if you know Noriega, that’s interesting, because we could spend a whole show on Noriega, and how George Bush went down in 1989, invaded the country in order to get his hands on one person, and, by the way, folks, I have a video that’s available – it’s called “The Panama Deception,” and it’s a must for you folks. You must buy this. It’s an hour and 43 minutes long, and it costs $35. It’s worth every bit of it.

 

And, Chip, I couldn’t believe it. I sat down and watched this, and American soldiers took people out of the cars that were going from one part of the city to the other, during the Panama invasion – these were family-members – put them face down on the ground and blew them away, shot them, killed them in cold blood.

 

Not only that, but there were estimated probably 4,000 civilians were killed, and, in order to cover that up, they put these people in mass graves. They’ve uncovered – the Panamanians, since the GI’s have left, 1989 – the Panamanians have uncovered mass grave after mass grave. They just rolled the bodies in and put dirt over the top of them.

 

This is American GI’s, folks. These are U.S. troops. These are young kids who are being told by their Nazi leaders – and that’s the only way I know how to put it – that to go out and kill, kill, kill.

 

You’ve got to get this video. $35 to Ted Gunderson, P.O. Box 18000-259, Las Vegas, Nevada.

 

So, by the way, if you agree with me on the only reason we invaded Panama was – well, there were two reasons. Number one, to get his hands on Noriega, who doublecrossed him, and was defiant, even though he was CIA-trained and involved in the drug-operation. And number two, to seize control of the Panama Canal. How do you feel about that?

 

T: I feel that both of those are correct. However, Noriega prevailed in that, in that he wasn’t executed as it was ordered. He was never supposed to come out of there alive.

 

A: Well, I know, because they couldn’t find him at first.

 

T: That’s right.

 

A: And then the news media got on it, and, when they did find him, there was too much publicity, there were too many Western press around.

 

And, by the way, that was controlled, as far as the information being leaked, or being given to the American media, the mainstream media, that was totally controlled by the U.S. government. And the people did not know – they had no idea what went on down there.

 

And the invasion was supported by the “New York Times,” the “L.A. Times,” and the “Wall Street Journal.” Can you imagine?

 

And this documentary that’s available through my office, P.O. Box 18,000-259, Las Vegas, Nevada 89109, $35, this documentation lays it on the line. It’s a must for you people.

 

Do you have any other thoughts on the Panamanian invasion and on Noriega?

 

T: Well, I know that, on one particular occasion – and I have that chronicled in the Chronicles – in 1985, I made notes on the back of a Chronic—one of the pages of a flight-plan, of a conversation that took place in one of the Contra camps between Rodriguez and – Felix Rodriguez and Ollie North, talking about the problems with Noriega and the problems with Seal, and at that time it was said that Mr. Bush would see that Noriega was taken care of, and that Jeb was going to work with the Colombians to see that Seal was taken care of.

 

A: Jeb Bush?

 

T: That’s correct.

 

A: And, of course, what happened to – I’m going to let you tell what happened to Barry Seal. He was neutralized, as you say. I say he was murdered by the Colombian cartel, right?

 

T: That’s correct. He was executed outside of a halfway house in…

 

A: Baton Rouge.

 

T: Baton Rouge.

 

A: Baton Rouge, Louisiana.

 

T: Yes.

 

Put there by a federal judge—U.S. federal judge.

 

A: That’s right.

 

T: Knowing that he needed to go into the witness protection program.

 

A: That’s right, that’s right.

 

It’s called “murder,” folks. And we’re talking about America’s leaders, George Bush, Bill Clinton, the whole bunch.

 

And now Congress votes to give our children away to the tune of 416-5. What’s going on in Washington, D.C.? Our congressmen are being blackmailed through drugs and through sex. And what’s happened is, they’ve been set up through drugs and sex, and they have to vote the way they’re told to vote.

 

You know, in addition, we have – the Russian mafia is active in this country, they’re very active in the L.A. area, and here, not too long ago, there was an article in the “New York” magazine, and – not the “New Yorker,” but the “New York” magazine, and this article documented that $1 billion a day, in $100 bills, is being shipped through the Russian mafia, Soviet Union, via flight 30 with Delta Airlines. This article actually exists.

 

Now – and this was being furnished to them by the Federal Reserve system.

 

So, somebody’s pumping a lot of money into Russia illegally, certainly, and Communism is not dead.

 

Do you have any comments on that, Chip?

 

T: Like I say, it’s not dead, it’s just loose.

 

A: It’s loose, in Santa Fe, and so forth.

 

What do you have to say today, Ken?

 

KEN: Well,…

 

(AUDIO GAP) Olympic plan, and the Olympians, and the committee of 300 then, why are you protecting them? Is it – are you in fear for your life, or is it – does it go much deeper than we even know?

 

T: I was an assassin for them.

 

I know what they can do. And I know how they will do it. And there’s no way in hell I’ll let it happen to my children.

 

KEN: I understand that.

 

Well, what do you suggest that we can do, to take back our country first?

 

T: We need to concentrate on home turf. That’s where we need to concentrate. We need to get the corruption out of our federal government, and get the control back into the hands of the honest people in the United States, that’s what we need to do.

 

KEN: Are there any left?

 

T: Everywhere. They’re just pretty complacent right now, most of them.

 

A: They’re ignorant.

 

KEN: Well, yes, that goes along with the plan, the future-shock kind of thing.

 

I was – is it like are there any honest people left in the higher offices and in our military?

 

T: Sure. I believe so.

 

However, as we’re rearing new officers in the military, they’re being trained in – and brought up in a different atmosphere, and taught different standards.

 

And so, in bringing them up in that, they will be brought up under the auspices of what we’re looking for in a one-world government.

 

KEN: OK.

 

Well, I’ll get off the air now.

 

A: Yes, and, Ken, one other – let me point out something else to you. In the Gulf War, there were like close to 700,000 American troops over there. Most of those troops – I think it’s something like four-fifths of those troops – are no longer in the service, because they suffered this Gulf War Syndrome, this illness, and they can’t even do pushups now. So they’ve washed these men out. They’ve brought in new recruits. They’ve also cleansed at the officer level, and they’ve brought troops up there. And, if you want to see our U.S. Army in action, get this video film, “Panama Deception,” for $35 through my office, and you will be shocked.

 

Not to mention also that, after World War Two, our CIA, our government brought all these Nazi scientists and other individuals in who were high up in the hierarchy of the Germany and the Nazi government, brought them in to this country, and I’m convinced – including the scientists that worked on the rockets and so forth – I’m convinced that this is – we’re leaning in that direction.

 

Our troops in Panama, during that invasion, were nothing – in my opinion – I immediately thought about the Nazis, and how they just lined people up and shot them. American boys shooting innocent civilians, I couldn’t believe it.

 

A: We’re halfway through on these lecture series, if you want to call it that.

 

And, while we’re talking about lecture series, are you going to be giving some lectures?

 

T: Speaking to me?

 

A: Yes.

 

T: I think that, in time here – I’m under a 60-day restriction with the federal courts right now – but in time I would like to look forward and prepare for something like that. I think that I have some information that America needs to hear.

 

A: What’s the status of your case right now? You – you’ve served how many – how much time?

 

T: I’ve served two years. The appeals court in Atlanta has stated that there is a substantial question concerning the court case, since my -- our court-appointed attorneys didn’t put on a defense, didn’t call one witness for the defense. They just rested after the prosecution was done.

 

A: Well, your court-appointed attorneys, were they CIA operatives?

 

T: No, but they were approached by the agency, and told, you know, “If you go forward with any type of defense, you’ll never represent another person.”

 

A: Do you know this for a fact?

 

T: Yes. They even – they said it.

 

I was in prison – or I was in jail at the time, but it was stated in front of a newspaperman who wrote the article about the treason charge, and in front of my family members.

 

A: Did you hire these attorneys, or were they court-appointed, you say?

 

T: No, the federal government seized all of our assets, so that we didn’t have the ability to hire, we didn’t have our moneys available to hire an attorney, so we had to depend on counsel that was provided by the court.

 

A: Well, it sounds to me like they blew it, by not, you know, presenting a couple of witnesses.

 

(CROSS-TALK)

 

A: They’ll never call on those attorneys again to represent somebody that…

 

T: They needed to call at least one witness, that’s true.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: They’ll never – well, I imagine that, as a result of your case, I imagine orders went out all over the world that, if you ever, to the attorneys, if you’re ever called and asked to defend one of our, quote, “people,” end quote, you better call at least one witness, so we don’t have the case overturned.

 

T: That’s right. It…

 

A: Has your case been overturned yet?

 

T: No, but the court’s ordered me, on a – the 11th Circuit ordered an immediate release. They have a substantial question about the constitutional issues of the case.

 

A: Well, let me tell you right now, Chip. You’re doing the right thing by going public with all this information.

 

T: My wife and I, we’re comfortable with doing this. We know that the United States government, they’re masters of control. For decades, they’ve been working toward getting the American people so complacent that they won’t react, and that’s where they’re at.

 

We’re always going to keep food on the table and gas in the car for the American people, because that’s what they want. What we’re working on now in the American government – and I say “we” because I am an American. However, they, being the people controlling things now, what they are doing is, they are working on foreign powers now, aligning them for the world situation.

 

A: For the New World Order.

 

T: That’s correct.

 

A: You know, the New World Order, I saw it one night, on a documentary, Adolf Hitler – the New World Order. I flipped the channel, and, believe it or not, at that precise moment, when I flipped the channel, here’s George Bush talking about the New World Order.

 

T: Yes.

 

A: So, hey, it’s right around the corner, and they – it’s been very well designed. Of course, it’s been in the planning stages for two hundred and twenty-some years, since May 1 of 1776. This is the celebration for the Illuminati, folks. If you don’t know what the Illuminati is, you better go down to the library and find out what it’s all about.

 

By the way, Chip, the Illuminati – the word “Illuminati” is taken out of the dictionary that I have here at home. It’s no longer in the dictionary. Isn’t that interesting?

 

T: That is very interesting.

 

You know, especially concerning the fact that little baby George Bush was brought up by Senator Preston Bush, preparing him for – he hoped a political career, and George had never been elected to an office in the world before Ronnie took him on, under his wing.

 

A: Well, that’s right, and that’s another story. We’ll have to talk about this some other time.

 

By the way, folks, I have a four-hour lecture that’s available to you on the Illuminati and how it affects our world today, $35 from (AUDIO GAP) we’ll get it to you.

 

ANNOUNCER: Now here’s Ted!

 

A: And good (AUDIO GAP)

 

A: Before we do, we’re going to talk a little bit about drugs and Mexico. You know, the president’s going to be visiting Mexico on Monday, as a matter of fact, and there’s an article in the “Dallas Morning News” today, and it’s captioned “Clinton Rethinking Certification Options.” He wants to avoid a congressional fight over Mexico’s cooperation in the Drug War. And of course the House International Relations Committee voted Wednesday to abolish the certification-program, and give the president authority to impose optional sanctions on countries that allow money-laundering and protection for trafficking of illegal drugs.

 

Now, going through this article, Mr. Clinton did not call for abolishing the current system, but he said – he asked aides to try and get knowledgeable people in Congress from both parties to really take a hard look at this, and make a bipartisan recommendation whether the – by the way, this interview and this article is based on an interview with the president by the “Dallas Morning News” and two other newspapers. So it’s an exclusive for three newspapers.

 

Quoting the president, “You don’t want to do something which appears on the surface to be tough, but actually undermines the ultimate objective. The ultimate objective is to reduce the volume of drugs coming into the United States.”

 

I got news for you, Mr. Clinton. You can reduce the amount of drugs coming into the United States through a number of means. First of all, you can get ahold of your folks over at the CIA office who are a part of the shadow government, and you can tell them to knock it off, and you can take sanctions against them. And you’re picking on Mexico, and the biggest drug-dealer in the world, number-one drug-dealer and the number-one terrorist in the world is the CIA?

 

Well, here’s some suggestions for you, Mr. President. You can set up ground-penetrating radar to detect tunnels, and of course, in so doing, you’re going to, obviously, have problems, you know, with your own people, those who are corrupt and who deserve to be exposed and prosecuted, but we can always look the other way on that.

 

Let’s go after the Mexicans, who are not involved with the CIA.

 

Also, you can set up surveillance radar on top. The ground-penetrating radar will detect tunnels.

 

You can do oceoanic (sp?) points. It can be followed. You can follow the ships.

 

You got the El Paso Intelligence Center, which is the aerial radar. You’ve got spy satellites, so you can divert one of those from the 500 miles in space to put a complete radar shield on the corridor. You can set up field-stations, secret listening-stations throughout the world. You’ve got the NSA, National the Security Agency, right now tapping the phones all over the world, monitoring overseas calls.

 

Certainly you could come up with some information there, and, of course, you can put someone to listen for drug-conversations, radio-intercept, and so on and so forth.

 

Now, you are aware, of course, that the drug-czar of the United States is Gen. McCaffrey (sp?), and I happen to have a little bit of information about Gen. McCaffrey, which I find would be very interesting. The only problem with my information, it’s informant information. I cannot, as a matter of fact, come forward with it at this point. Hopefully, it’ll be made public in the future.

 

Chip Tatum, you’re there?

 

T: Yes, I’m here, Ted.

 

A: OK.

 

What do you know about – what do you think about these sanctions and about the president’s approach to the drug-problem with Mexico? Did you have any contacts with Mexico, or Mexican officials, when you were with the CIA?

 

T: The Salinas brothers are about the only people that we dealt with down there.

 

A: And tell us about your association with them.

 

T: Well, I didn’t have a direct – actual direct association. However, others that were flying out of Ilapongo (sp?) Air Base in El Salvador had spoken about the protected airfields.

 

On one occasion in 1989, I recall at a monitoring site we had tapes off of Swan Island, we had tapes of over 18 tons of cocaine being flown to a Mexican location in one large operation which involved several of the cartels from Colombia. They overflew Panama, they overflew Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Honduras, and flew into Mexico, in excess of 18 tons, in one night.

 

A: Well, were CIA people involved in that?

 

T: We monitored it. We didn’t do anything about it.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: Well, that’s a pretty good answer.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

So, what you’re saying is, you allowed it to go through.

 

T: It was allowed to go through, that’s correct.

 

A: And what is 18 tons worth on the street, do you have any idea?

 

T: I have no idea.

 

A: Must be billions and billions.

 

Maybe it would cover the national debt.

 

T: It’s a nice retirement fund for someone.

 

A: Now, you talked about the Salinas brothers. Were they involved with the CIA in drug-operations?

 

T: The Salinas were involved in what Barry Seal called the “boss-hogs” on his boss-hog list, where he listed government officials around the world who were in fact involved in – both Salinases were on that list. So I would assume that Mr. Seal knew quite a bit about the Salinases.

 

A: Aha! And Barry Seal was of course the fella who was involved with the CIA in drugs and was assassinated in Baton Rouge, Louisiana in what?, 198-what?

 

T: 1986.

 

A: 1986, and he knew too much. He had been, as usual, tried and convicted of a crime, and the judge sentenced him over to some safe house where he had absolutely no protection. He came out one night and he was blown away by the Colombian cartel, I think, wasn’t it?

 

T; By members of the Colombian cartel. The question is, who coopted and paid for that hit?

 

A: Yes. And the question also is, is Barry Seal knew too much, right?

 

T: That’s absolutely correct.

 

A: Yes.

 

Well, there’s two ways of getting rid of you, folks, when you know too much about the shadow government-CIA drug-operation. One is to, as Chip says, neutralize them, and I say that’s just plain murder. And the other way is to set them up and frame them, and send them off to jail, and discredit them. Usually it’s one of the two ways.

 

Chip, you talked yesterday about the operation in Cambodia where you went in on – was it Operation Red Rock? Is that what you called it?

 

T: That’s right, Operation Red Rock, into the Phnom Penh airport in Cambodia.

 

A: Yes.

 

Now, folks, bear in mind, they were – oops! It’s time for a quick break.

 

(BREAK)

 

A: That’s the way they deal with people who know too much, right, Chip?

 

T: That’s correct. Can I take a minute and go down the list of code-names of the men who were on Team Red Rock, and what happened to them?

 

A: Yes, please do.

 

T: There were three killed by friendly fire, U.S. fire. However, I will say, on the U.S.’s part, we were dressed in sapper uniforms, they didn’t know who we were, there was a United States Air Force colonel who told – who knew who we were, but told them that we were the enemy. He was looking for a star. Chief…

 

A: Who was that colonel?

 

T: He’s in the book. I don’t know where he is now, but, now that I’m out, I would like to start a search and see if I can find him. I’m going to do that behind the lines, if you know what I mean.

 

A: Well, you might be able to give him a star, the star he was looking for.

 

T: Sure.

 

Chief was an American Indian, a green beret. He was killed by the door-guns of the CH-53 Jolly Green Giant at our pickup-zone.

 

Cajun was from Louisiana. He was CIA. Cajun was killed by the door-guns of that same CH-53 Jolly Green at the pickup-zone.

 

Supercop was a Northeast—from the Northeastern U.S., a former Naval Intelligence officer and current Navy Seal, but he was killed by U.S. F-4 fighters attacking an antiaircraft-artillery site that we had attacked, and they came in and took over and finished the deal.

 

Killed by enemy fire was one called the Kid. He was a Vietnamese-American CIA. His parents were – worked in the embassy. The Kid was killed by an NVA patrol as Red Rock crossed an open field.

 

Captured by the North Vietnamese were our pla…

 

T: (AUDIO GAP) platoon sergeant, My Way, a U.S. Army captain green beret. My Way was tortured to death by a Chinese officer. His skin was torn from his body. He died from exposure, shock, and loss of blood.

 

Bagman was a U.S. Army green beret. Bagman died of wounds received from a Soviet officer’s pistol following torture and interrogation.

 

Cowboy was from Texas, a U.S. Army green beret. Cowboy was tortured by a Soviet officer and a Chinese officer. He died of suffocation.

 

Flame was a U.S. Army green beret. Flame was killed with Cowboy on the torture-post by the Soviet and Chinese officers. He was decapitated by a Chinese officer during interrogation.

 

Snake, United States Marine. Snake was tortured and interrogated by Soviet and Chinese officers.

 

Folks, I want you to listen to this. These are Chinese officers now I’m talking about.

 

A: And Soviets.

 

T: And Soviets.

 

He died by decapitation.

 

Pablo, of Mexican descent, U.S. Navy Seal. Pablo escaped during torture but was captured, interrogated, and tortured to death by a Soviet officer.

 

Haystack, from Kansas, U.S. Army green beret. Haystack was shot in the abdomen by Chinese officers. He died of his wounds only minutes after the U.S. Marine patrol liberated us and began treating his wounds. It was Haystack’s heroism that attracted the Marines’ attention to us while we were in captivity.

 

Pop, our platoon sergeant, U.S. Army green beret. Pop was wounded in the chest and head by U.S. Marines. That Marine was not aware that Pop was a serviceman, a U.S. serviceman. He may have survived his wounds. He was shipped stateside for emergency medical care. He was in a coma. He had severe brain-swelling.

 

Highway, which was me, a Bulldog, Air Force combat controller, I’m here.

 

A: Well, you haven’t…

 

T: I’m here, and I’m talking.

 

A: And two of you survived, Chip.

 

T: Two of us survived. That’s correct.

 

A: Would that be Pop and you?

 

T: That’s Pop and me.

 

A: And Pop’s – Pop, you don’t know his full name?

 

T: Just Chuck. I know that – I have some information that’s come in to me from several sources around the U.S. that I’m following up on now.

 

A; OK. What we want to do, Chuck – or Chip, is, on the second hour of this program go over that again, because that second hour goes shortwave around the world, and let’s give it another shot. And I have control of the second hour with the shortwave and satellite. Between the two of them, we have an audience of over three million people.

 

So, we’ll review that again, on the second hour.

 

T: Great.

 

A: OK.

 

Now, is there anything more you want to talk about, as far as Mexico is concerned, and the drugs coming through there?

 

T: I don’t believe so. I know Mexico is one of the large transshipment points, as is now coming across the northern border of the United States. We’re able to fly even single-engine aircraft and take off, specially equipped single-engine aircraft, take off in Colombia, fly to the Bahamas, rest overnight, wait for a weather-window, go up into Nova Scotia, come across to the Wayburn (sp?) area of Saskatchewan, and then come down into Montana, North Dakota, any of those areas, and drop their drugs.

 

A: What about the El Paso Intelligence Center? About, to folks, that’s a special setup in El Paso, Texas. I visited there when I was head of the FBI in Dallas in my day, and our tour was the – the man in charge, a good man with DEA. There are some good folks out there, folks, who have been involved with the government.

 

And anyway, they keep track of all the ships and all the airplanes coming into the United States, or coming north from South and Central America, follow them, surveillance, et cetera. What about them? Are they effective any more? Or do you know?

 

T: EPIC is only as good as the intelligence given in to them.

 

A: And did you have anything to do with EPIC?

 

T: No, but some confidential informants that I investigated, some people that were on Customs staff that I investigated, who were running certain sites around the Caribbean, were shutting them down and letting aircraft come through, so the intelligence never got through to EPIC…

 

A: Time for a quick break…

 

(BREAK)

 

A: (AUDIO GAP) enlighten the people that did not hear to listen to this show today.

 

We talked mainly – I’d say the highlight of the hour was, we talked about how you were set up on the deal, and your wife and you were charged, in order to discredit you. Why don’t you repeat that for us today for these folks?

 

T: That’s a typical – when I talk about neutralizations, Ted, I talked – we have three techniques we use to neutralize a person. We – and neutralization is – if you imagine putting a car in neutral, and moving it where you want to, that’s what we do in neutralizations. We can intimidate them, we can coerce them into doing what we want, or we can neutralize them. You know, the coercion portion would be the defamation of character, and that’s basically what they wanted to do. They needed, because of the information I have in the “Tatum Chronicles” and in other documents that I published since then, they need to say that I’m not a credible witness against these particular people, simply because, if this information is credible, and it comes out, they will go to prison for the rest of their lives.

 

A: That’s the goal, isn’t it?

 

T: That’s absolutely the goal.

 

A: And I’ll help you in any way I can. Go ahead.

 

Tell us how they set you up.

 

T: I was charged initially with a type of fraud, making – it’s Title 18, 1007. There’s been very few prosecutions under it, but it’s conspiring to make a – conspiring to hold back information from the FDIC. They said that I didn’t disclose total ownership of the companies that I’d owned.

 

The person who felt heavy on his shoulders because of the terrible deeds that he did walked into the U.S. Attorney’s office one day from the blue and said that, “I want to admit that I conspired with a guy named Tatum to not disclose everything to the United States government. My name is Bill Lucinger (sp?). I’m very sorry for not disclosing it. You need to prosecute Mr. Tatum.”

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: And who is his friend that told him to do that?

 

T: He’s one of Oliver North’s campaign-managers (CROSS-TALK)

 

A: Oh, Ollie North, OK, the hero!

 

T: … from the United States Marines.

 

A: Yes, the hero from the Marines who is involved in drug-dealing. Go ahead.

 

T: That’s right.

 

A: And so the U.S. Attorney prosecuted you?

 

T: So the U.S. Attorney prosecuted me. My – our attorneys – since they seized all of our assets, the government, we had no way to pay an attorney, retain an attorney, even though we had friends who were attorneys for years, working in other arenas. However, they weren’t criminal attorneys. I never needed that before.

 

So we had to depend on public defenders. The public defenders’ office, they were independent counsel outside of the public defenders’ office, that the U.S. hired. Out of 80 witnesses that we listed for our defense, not one witness was contacted, not one witness was called, to provide a defense for us.

 

After the trial was over, Dempsey’s attorney said in front of my brother, my mother, and a newspaper reporter who had covered the treason charge that I was charged with, he said that he couldn’t provide a defense, he couldn’t call them, because he was told that he’d never work again. He was approached in a bar by some people from the DIA, Defense Intelligence Agency…

 

A: And the result, of course, is that you were convicted, right?

 

T: Result is, I was convicted, and my new attorney filed a – filed a request for a release, stating there are some real problems with this conviction. For one thing, he didn’t have a real trial. He didn’t – there was no defense.

 

And the appeals court looked at it and said, “Whoah!” So they gave me an immediate release on April 4th, after spending two years in federal prison.

 

A: This is April 4th, just this last month.

 

T: That’s correct.

 

A: And what’s the future for you?

 

T: We don’t know. It could come back down, especially with me doing these programs. They could come back down tomorrow and say – or this afternoon, throw the cuffs on, and say, “You’re too noisy.”

 

A: Well, that’s why we have to give this information out as soon as possible.

 

T: That’s correct.

 

A: Get the people aware of it.

 

And they also came after your wife Nancy, right?

 

T: They convicted her. My attorney said they convicted her to coerce me into turning the stuff over. I talked to her, and she said, “I’ll go to prison first, sweetheart.”

 

A: And you were approached by two Secret Service, followed on a trip to South and Central America, where you went down to pick up some documents that would implicate a number of interesting people, and came back up here. You shook the surveillance down there, came back up here. You were approached and asked to turn those documents over to the government, and you refused. And that’s what – it was after that that they arrested you and tried you, right?

 

T: That’s correct.

 

A: OK, folks, that’s the story.

 

And how about your wife? Is she – was she released, or did she serve time, or what?

 

T: She has a felony conviction. She wore a – she had to go to a halfway house for 30 days. That concerned us, especially with the fate of Barry Seal going to a federal halfway house. And then she was on an ankle-bracelet for five months. Following that, two weeks ago, she came off of that.

 

Now she’s on three years’ supervised release.

 

A: OK.

 

(BREAK)

 

T: We had talked about EPIC, and the enormous job that they have to do, and let me explain something to you. You know, the levels of corruption at the CIA are, you know, they’re – it’s sitting at very high levels, but the big problem we have in the drug-trafficking and drug-trading, drugs coming into the United States, one of the biggest problems we have is the enormity, the number of corrupt individuals in U.S. customs.

 

Boy, I’ll tell you, there aren’t many that aren’t on the take there. Between them and the way that they work their confidential-informant program, it’s amazing that they’re able to stop anything.

 

A: Yes.

 

You know, I had, on the Nebraska case, the Franklin cover-up case out of – that I worked back in the – well I’m still working it, from the late 80’s up till the present time – Paul Benacci (sp?) told me he’s made over 100 trips, drug trips around the world when he was 10, 11, 12 years old. He would fly to L.A. and meet a couple, a man and woman he had never seen before. They’d have five passports in different names, for each one of them, then jump on a plane, and they were just dropping drugs all over the world.

 

He also told me that there was a customs agent at LAX in Los Angeles who was dirty, and he would fly back from Nebraska out to LAX, go to a certain locker with a key, pull it out, and take the drugs back to Omaha, Nebraska on a regular basis. Also Alicia Owens (sp?) made this statement. And, by the way, Alicia is serving 15 years for perjury, and Paul Benacci has been convicted of child-molestation. So that’s what they did to them. They were talking and coming forward and refusing to keep their mouths shut.

 

Chip, what about Bush? We talked about him – we talked about Nixon giving the order to have you folks killed on the Cambodian air-raid – what about Bush? What can you tell us about him (GARBLED WORDS), that is?

 

T: George Bush?

 

A: Yes, George, Jeb, all of them. I – you know, whatever – whoever – ever the…

 

T: As Gen. Noriega said on the – on “60 Minutes,” or “20-20,” or whatever the other night, George Herbert Walker Bush – I think, instead of “Herbert Walker,” it should be “Trouble,” his middle name is “Trouble.” He’s been providing trouble for each and every person who are listening to this program, and each and every person that’s sitting in the United States comfortable with their way of life.

 

A: And explain that.

 

T: He’s the man who has masterminded and has put together the heavy movement of drugs during Iran-Contra. He’s the man who has masterminded and taken over control of the Reagan White House, during the – during at least eight – well, six years of the Reagan presidency, and then four of his own. That’s ten years in complete control, plus a year as the Director of CIA. Anyone who thinks that he doesn’t have – isn’t a very, very, very powerful man needs to look today at where he goes, who he talks to. He has direct inroads to every leader in the world. He goes to those leaders, he talks to them, he attempts to align them for what will be a New World Order, a single government. If they don’t align, then they leave this earth.

 

A: Yes, or they’re – have a revolution or something, right?

 

T: That’s correct. Something happens.

 

A: Do you have direct knowledge of Bush’s involvement in the drug operation?

 

T: Yes.

 

A: Tell us about it.

 

T: Well, while I was flying – well, he was in – people don’t realize it, but George Bush and the heights of everything going on in the Iran-Contra situation, in 1985, on April 12th, was in Honduras. He was meeting with the president – he met with the president of Colombia, he met with the president of Honduras.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

I mean – and in the meantime we were building the cocaine-kitchens for them. His national security director, Don Gregg, met with me at dinner, on the – a week preceding Mr. Bush’s arrival, explaining what needed to be done, and what had to be in place before he got there.

 

A: Don Gregg being the advance-man?

 

T: That’s right.

 

A: And he talked to you about Bush coming in, and did he discuss drugs?

 

T: He discussed drugs. He…

 

A: What did he say?

 

T: It’s all in the “Tatum Chronicles.” It’s written down…

 

A: Oh, yeah, we better stop right now. How do these people get ahold of the “Tatum Chronicles”?

 

T: It’s at 1-800-201-7892, 800-201-7892, extension 58. For those who are outside of the United States, I’ll give a number in the second hour on how they can get that.

 

A: Yes, let’s be sure to do that the second hour.

 

T: Right.

 

A: OK. What did Don Gregg say about the drugs and Bush coming in?

 

T: Well, Mr. Gregg, while he was there, passed on a large briefcase of money to be taken to a meeting that was going to be held in El Acatal (sp?), Costa Rica, and (CROSS-TALK)

 

A: It’s time for a break.

 

T: … amalgamated account.

 

(BREAK)

 

(BREAK)

 

A: (AUDIO GAP) 1-800-205-6245, without fail. Get a copy of the tape, audiotapes of this show and other shows, a total of six shows, 49.95, and make copies, and give them to your friends. It’s a fantastic gift, to educate people around you who do not think this is going on. It’s something that they can use when they take trips this summer, in their car. They can put this tape in, and listen to it, and we’re so far – we’re going to have 12 hours, and probably more.

 

OK. You were talking about Don Gregg, advance-man for George Bush, gave -- brought a large briefcase of money? Tell us about that.

 

T: A large briefcase of money was delivered to us at the embassy in Tegucigalpa. It was to be taken to a meeting in El Acatal, Costa Rica. At that meeting there would be William Barr, Gen. Noriega, Amiram Nir, Mike Harari – both of them Mossad – Joe Fernandez, CIA, and Felix Rodriguez.

 

The instructions given – oh, and Gen. Alvarez (sp?), from the Honduran army, their chief of staff – the instructions given were very basic: deposit it in the amalgamated account in Panama. It was to go to Gen. Noriega.

 

A: Well, it went from Clinton (?, unclear) to Noriega, in the end, then. How much money was there?

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

T: From what I understand, there was about 23 million dollars.

 

A: And did Noriega put it in his bank and then, when we invaded Noriega, in 1989, the money was gone, I guess, huh?

 

T: There was a lot more than that gone. We had replaced – the Bush administration had, or the Reagan administration, Bush administration, whichever you want to call it, had replaced many of the stores of cash that the cartels had, in Noriega’s bank, with what’s called “counterfeit superbills.” Those superbills were sitting in there, and we took the real money out, and were using that around the world in operations.

 

The one thing we couldn’t allow happen, though, was for all that money to come out and be thrown into the marketplace. And we were afraid that Gen. Noriega would yank that money out and spend it.

 

A: And what happened?

 

T: Well, we got rid of the owner of the money. Pablo (CROSS-TALK)

 

A: … counterfeit money.

 

T: Pablo Escobar (sp?), and I believe, if my memory serves correct, the armies of Gen. Noriega were whisked away from around their federal reserve bank, we emptied the vaults, and took Noriega to prison.

 

A: This is the Panama invasion in 1989, right?

 

T: That’s correct.

 

A: Folks, I have a video of this. It’s $35. You won’t believe it. It shows American GI’s, young American boys mowing down, killing of civilians. They went into homes and burned out the homes, and just destroyed them. They were like Nazi storm-troopers. Send $35 to Ted Gunderson, Post Office Box 18,259 for this video. You will not believe it.

 

Have you seen this video, Chip?

 

T: I haven’t, Ted.

 

A: Oh, it’s unreal! I was shocked!

 

T: I’ll have to call in and get that, maybe.

 

A: What?

 

T: I’ll have to call in and get that, maybe.

 

A: Well, just call me, and I’ll take care of you on that one, you know. We don’t -- guests on the show don’t have to pay for anything. That’s the least I can do for you, for getting this information out.

 

Anything more you want to mention about Bush?

 

T: Sure. I’d love to mention quite a bit more about Mr. Bush.

 

I guess, the clinch would be, what is the connection between George Bush and Olof Palme (sp?)? Olof Palme was a prime minister of Sweden who was assassinated in 1986. I think it would be very interesting to the people out there as they hear about neutralizations, and people of the world as they hear about neutralizations, about a meeting that took place between Mr. Palme and Mr. North and Mr. – Don Gregg. One of the things that needed to be done was to get, for all the weapons that were being purchased, or built-in purchased, without serial numbers and so forth, was to get end-user certificates for all these weapons, so that it could be stated they came from a different country than the United States, as the Boland Amendment didn’t allow us to provide weaponry into particular countries.

 

Mr. Palme, the prime minister of Sweden, was approached. The whole plan was laid out on his lap, and he chose not to participate. He was dead within weeks.

 

A: Well, now, wasn’t he supposedly killed by mistake by somebody from the Mossad?

 

T: He was, from what I understand,…

 

A: That’s what, a cover story?

 

T: … killed by a South African.

 

A: South African?

 

T: No, that’s – you’re thinking of Mike Harari’s mistake in shooting a waiter.

 

A: Oh, yeah, that’s right. You’re right. Right. Yes.

 

And how did they kill him? How did they eliminate him?

 

T: I – he was shot. I’m pretty sure he was shot.

 

A: Oh!

 

And, well, in the name of national security, right?

 

T: In the name of national security.

 

No one could ever know that that’s what was going on.

 

A: Well, they also – oh, we can’t give that information out, in the interest of national security.

 

But the real bottom line is money, greed, and, you know, let’s take care of me, and the heck with you.

 

Anything more you want to mention about George Bush et al.?

 

T: I think that that’s just about it for now.

 

A: Wow! That’s very heavy, Chip.

 

I heard that Bush has been – and some of the other top administrative officials, have been indicted in one of the Central American countries, in Costa Rica or where?

 

T: Costa Rica didn’t indict Mr. Bush. They indicted Oliver North and Joe Fernandez, and one other, I’m not sure – well, several others, but those are the two that I’m sure of, that I’ve read the indictments on. They’re persona non grata. If they show up in that country, they’ll be arrested for trafficking narcotics.

 

A: Is there any way we can get them to go down there?

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

T: Well, we certainly get people to go in and kidnap people to come here, but I think, if we did that, their entourage and their leaders would be very unhappy, in that Costa Rica would become another appendage of the United States real quick.

 

A: Well, now, I also have heard, through my various sources, that Costa Rica is heavily infiltrated with DEA agents, and it’s a heavy drug center now, in most recent years. Is that right?

 

T: Always has been.

 

A: And they’re being controlled by whom, by the U.S. government?

 

T: Well, by someone.

 

Having been out of the system now since 1992, I don’t know, but I know that there are a lot of government officials, government people that have retired and gone down there to work, a lot of government people.

 

(CROSS-TALK)

 

T: Who are, quote, “retired,” I should say.

 

A: I beg your pardon?

 

T: Who are, quote, “retired.”

 

A: Yes, uh huh.

 

And they’re actually working in the intelligence community down there, and working on the drug operation, do you think?

 

T: I believe many of them are.

 

(BREAK)

 

A: I wanted to get into the McCaffrey – Gen. McCaffrey, who is the drug czar appointed by Clinton. We’ll do that on the second hour. I have some intelligence information on him that will shock America, and also, you’re familiar with how they shut down radar periodically and said that they have mechanical problems?

 

T: Sure.

 

A: I have been told by my sources that this is a subterfuge in order to make drops around the country. Is that right?

 

T: That’s one way. There is other ways too, I’ll tell you about those.

 

A: Let’s go into that in a second hour, and we’ll have more time to discuss it.

 

And, Chip, what about – another area I want to get into, is there something that we can talk for about three or four minutes now, because some of these topics that I want to ask you about are going to be much more involved than that?

 

T: Well, as you talked about, the way that there are to drop radar, we have built a line of radar across, from – across the Caribbean, all the way across Central America and out into the Pacific. Those – the locations of that line of radar should be able to fend off any flights that come through. But somehow flights are able to come through. That system was set up, when I told you about that over 18 tons that was flown, all the way from – in numerous sorties, in numerous flights, by numerous cartels, various cartel-members, from Colombia into Mexico, with the support of the Mexican government, regime at the time, and I think we can talk about that in just a minute too.

 

A: Yeah. Well, what I was specifically referring to was the “New Yorker” of several months ago, the radar shutdown, they had a problem landing airplanes at Kennedy Airport and also LaGuardia (sp?), and also in Indiana it’s been a common practice, situation, also on the West Coast. And I’ve been told that they shut the radar down, claiming that there’s mechanical problems, but actually what they’re doing is they’re making some critical drops by plane, so there’s no record of it. Is that -- have you heard about that?

 

T: I’ve heard of instances like that happening, yes. And that’s a plausible answer.

 

A: So, if you have knowledge of that, personal knowledge?

 

T: I have personal knowledge of it in the southern areas, not up in the central U.S.

 

A: Well, what do you mean, “southern areas”?

 

T: In the central United States, you know, there are so many places that it can be dropped where there are – is no radar. Why go into a huge metro radar zone? That’s my question.

 

A: Yes.

 

T: Why get into that particular problem, when there are enormous, vast amounts of land in the United States that are noncovered for radar?

 

A: Well, as a pilot, you would know what those areas are, and you would be able to manuever your way up into the various states, and drop major drops without being detected, is that what you’re saying?

 

T: Absolutely.

 

Real easy. Buy a little Cobra radar-detector and put it in your aircraft, and you’ll know whether you’re being tracked by radar or not.

 

A: And if you are, what do you do? Do you go high, low, or you go through a U-turn or what?

 

T: You just go lower. You mask yourself behind some hills or something, and you drop out of that 5,000-foot range, get down into below 500 or below, and no one will catch you.

 

A: 500 or below, that’s pretty low, isn’t it?

 

T: I never liked to fly the helicopters I flew higher than I was willing to fall. So I stayed about 10 feet off the ground.

 

A: Oh, really?

 

T: That’s correct.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

The only thing above the trees were my main rotor-blades.

 

A: Oh, wow! Well, you must be a fantastic pilot then, huh?

 

T: They say I’m one of the best, according to those who were at numerous…

 

A: According to Mr. Peepers.

 

T: Pardon me?

 

A: According to Mr. Peepers.

 

T: Peepers and other crew-members, that’s right.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: Are you going to be using that in your civilian life, do you think?

 

T: I don’t think so.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

Although there is a heavy – other countries have asked me to provide training for their pilots (CROSS-TALK) corroboration.

 

A: No corroboration. Boy, how clever, huh?

 

T: Yes.

 

A: And you said that Colby was aware of this? What did Colby say when you confronted him with the information that you were supposed to have been assassinated after the Operation Red Rock?

 

T: He said that, yes, we were, it was Nixon’s orders, Nixon intended us to, and, if I didn’t stay in line, I still would be.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: If you -- wait a minute. He told you if you didn’t stay in line, you still would be what, assassinated?

 

T: He said, “There’s nothing I can do to protect you other than assure Washington that you’re fine, you’re working with us fine, and you’re not going to say anything, you’ll be quiet about this.”

 

A: Did he say whose idea it was to kill all you folks…?

 

T: It was Nixon’s idea. He passed that on to Gen. Haig and to Henry Kissinger. Kissinger and Haig were against it, and it was Kissinger and Haig who finally got the authorization of that routine patrol of Marines to come in across the lines into Cambodia, and, as they were mapping for a major offensive, and liberate us.

 

A: Was that patrol of Marines specifically sent across to try to locate you?

 

T: That’s correct.

 

A: And what about these mountain-men? How many of them were there?

 

T: The Montagnards?

 

A: Yes.

 

T: There were six of them to begin with, but there were only two of them when they were driving the truck out. And those were the two that we eliminated, pretty short order.

 

A: Well, why would they just have assigned two to eliminate thirteen?

 

T: Well, after thirteen have been through the type of mission that we’d been through, we were rag-tired, we were beat, it wasn’t going to be hard to take a AK-47 and wipe everyone out, sitting in the back of a truck.

 

A: OK.

 

(BREAK)

 

OK, folks, we got (AUDIO GAP)

 

T: No reason whatsoever.

 

I would like to say, on the Team Red Rock item, you know, Colby was also against this, and he was the point-man who had to do the initial -- the on-site planning for the mission, the day-to-day planning. He knew, like he told me, he knew that two Montagnards wouldn’t have a chance against us, that’s why only two were put there. However, it was Haig’s job to convince the president that two would be sufficient.

 

A: So the president, President Nixon, knew that much detail about the operation. He what, did not delegate it then, huh?

 

T: He did not delegate it. It was his baby.

 

A: Yeah, it was his baby.

 

So Colby knew that there was not – that you were going to be able to make it out of there.

 

T: That’s right.

 

A: Well, my hat’s off to Colby, who was obviously murdered by elements unknown, probably tied in to the government.

 

So, anything else you want to mention about Operation Red Rock?

 

T: No. I’m glad I’m here. I’m happy to be alive.

 

A: I guess you are, and you’re very fortunate. And thank goodness that you’re able to come forward now and expose these nefarious activities on the part of the U.S. intelligence.

 

You know, I want to make it very clear, folks, that there’s a lot of good people out there. I mean, look at Chip, and what a great American he is. A Rambo, John Wayne, all wrapped up in one. And there’s a lot of good people in the service, in the CIA, and in the FBI and DEA, and, yes, ATF, and I’m sure there’s some good ones in Customs and so forth. But their hands are tied because our system has been infiltrated at the very top, the very top, right up to the White House, and look at Colby. His hands were tied. He tried, and Haig, Gen. Haig, and Henry Kissinger, they tried to talk Nixon out of this. He would not be talked out of it. So they have to follow their orders. And that’s basically what the problem is in this country today, isn’t it, Chip?

 

T: That’s right. The orders come from above. Who do you tell?

 

A: Yes, who do you tell? And what do you do? You have to follow them or you’re dead.

 

T: That’s correct.

 

A: Or they send you to jail, and discredit you.

 

We need to get into some other areas, Chip. By the way, I’m going to have you back on a regular basis. How about once a week?

 

T: That would be nice.

 

A: Yes, and – because there’s so much we can talk about that we haven’t touched on that I want to ask about. We need to dig this out and make it available to the American people.

 

Chip, is there anything more that you want to mention about radar, about Bush, on the second hour, about Colby, about Kissinger, about Gen. Haig – and I think I mentioned on one of the other shows, I interviewed Haig at the White House on one occasion in connection with some possible criminal violations, and, believe it or not, Chip, I actually read him his rights.

 

T: Huh! He needs them read.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: And, you know, I attended a State Department dinner, after I retired, in Washington, D.C., and I went up and said, “Hey, Gen. Haig, do you remember me?” And he looked at me and he says, “Oh, yes,” he says, “are you going to have me indicted?”

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

And, anyway, that – we’ll talk about that some other time. This is your show, not mine.

 

So, what about this recruiting of civilians? That’s an area that I find very fascinating. You know, back in the early 80’s, there was the presidential directive issued that allowed the CIA to infiltrate or be reassigned, I guess, on a sub rosa covert basis, in other agencies, for cover, and then, if they had an assignment, they were pulled out of, say, the Department of Energy, or pulled out of the Pentagon, or whatever the case might be, and used for their assignment. But at the same time, this presidential directive allowed the CIA and other intelligence agencies, including the FBI, of course, to use civilians for some of their dirty work. Are you familiar with that?

 

T: Sure. I headed up what was called proprietary companies, where we would hire and contract in civilians to do the job.

 

A: OK. Let’s get back to – it seems like the time runs out as soon as we get into a subject…

 

(BREAK)

 

A: Chip, one of the – somebody called in during…

 

A: (AUDIO GAP) want to know what the public can do to help you locate Chuck.

 

T: I don’t know that the public can do much. I’m doing quite a bit now, and I think that I’ve narrowed it down to six individuals, and I’m sure that one of these is Chuck.

 

A: OK. Well, that’s good.

 

And, if you locate him, ask him if he wants to go on the show.

 

T: You bet I will!

 

A: And let’s hope he’s still alive.

 

What about – do you know, going back to this operation – I’m going to come to it – we’ve got a caller on the line, but I’ll come right back to you, John in Colorado, but I just want to ask a couple of questions before I forget it, it slips by my mind.

 

So you did not know the names of any of these people in Operation Red Rock, did you?

 

T: Nope.

 

A: You didn’t know their first names either?

 

T: Well, yeah, and I go over the first names of several of these in the book.

 

A: OK.

 

So there’s no way of getting ahold of their relatives, or their loved ones, and telling them what happened to them?

 

T: No way that I’m aware of.

 

I know…

 

(CROSS-TALK)

 

My family was notified that I was KIA initially.

 

A: “KIA” meaning?

 

T: “Killed in action.” So…

 

A: “Killed in action.”

 

T: So I believe that they too were notified.

 

A: So they were notified of that, but they don’t know the circumstances or the details.

 

T: That’s right.

 

A: OK. If any of you folks have any idea of who these people might be, give him your address, your phone number, and whatever, Chip. If anybody happens to think that it might be somebody, one of their relatives, in other words.

 

T: Sure. My address is P.O. Box 895082, Leesburg (sp?), Florida 34789.

 

A: OK.

 

Do you – I’ve got a suggestion for you, Chip. Why don’t we put you in touch with a real professional artist who could do artist’s conceptions of each one of these people and put it in your book?

 

T: Well, that would be pretty nice.

 

A: OK. Just a little investigative technique that I’ve used in the past.

 

T: Sure.

 

A: Let’s talk about that after the show, also some other things I want to talk to you about…

 

(AUDIO GAP)

 

A: … you with the man that kept records of the black ops, operation, drugs and guns and so forth for the CIA, right?

 

T: That’s correct. Uncle Henry, Mr. Hyde, is the one who sets up the funding-accounts for the proprietary companies. We carried a $250,000 signature line of credit so that we could, at any time, pull cash out to pay the civilian employees, the contractors, to provide their services.

 

A: And so, OK, you had – did you have to pull money out in order to pay for the civilian contractors?

 

T: That’s correct. I’d pull it out on a signature-loan, and, within a week, it would be replaced.

 

A: Would be paid, in other words?

 

T: That’s right.

 

A: And what about your paperwork, where did it go?

 

T: What paperwork?

 

A: I mean, did you call Henry Hyde on the phone and say, “Henry, I just did this,” or what? How did you handle that?

 

T: No, I had – there was an attorney in Rochester, New York that all of our documents, all of our documentation went in to. He was actually the person who set up the companies and oversaw the companies.

 

A: Do you want to mention the attorney’s name?

 

T: Sure. Ben Whittaker (sp?).

 

A: Ben Whittaker, huh? And he’s in Syracuse?

 

T: Rochester.

 

A: Oh, Rochester.

 

Time for a quick break, folks.

 

(BREAK)

 

A: (AUDIO GAP) talk about Mr. Whittaker. So you would take out, say, $50,000, give it to a civilian. What would his assignment be?

 

T: Well, whatever the assignment was. Our archer-teams were five-man teams, five men including me, I was the fifth man. The pay was $50,000 per mission to complete the mission, whatever that mission was. Some of them were half that. Some were $25,000 a mission.

 

To give you an example of one of the missions they had, there was a man called “Ramon Navarro” (sp?), who was in charge of setting up all the cocaine-kitchens in Central America for Bush and North. I go through that with the documents in the “Tatum Chronicles.” We’ll give a number later for that, but these documents are there. I mean, they hang these guys. Ramon Navarro was approached by an archer-team late at night, the night before he was to go and testify in one of the collateral Noriega trials going on. Unfortunately, he died in an accident the night before.

 

A: An auto accident?

 

T: An auto accident. The archer-team was only paid $25,000 for that auto accident.

 

A: Now, what’s an archer-team? Is that CIA people? Is that you? Or is that civilians?

 

T: That’s members of OSG-2 who are intelligence-officers or civilians, whoever we put together for the team.

 

A: So, but you would -- how would you get paid?

 

T: Right out of the account.

 

A: I mean, would you be given $25,000 for each assignment, or what?

 

T: That’s correct. My job was to get them there.

 

A: And so, you’re five times 25, so you’re roughly 100-and-what, $125,000?

 

T: 125,000 on that particular mission, but most missions that took, that were over a two-day mission were paid, the pay was $50,000.

 

A: Oh, so, the guys are making good money while they’re killing people.

 

T: As long as they had several missions. You know, sometimes there was only a couple of missions per team. The number of teams we had around the world were enormous. There was only one person that I ever flew twice.

 

A: How many – how much manpower did you have around the world, to draw on?

 

T: Each operative in the OSG had their own intelligence-network and contract-agents. Sand we would contact that operative and say, “We’re coming to your area. This is what we need.” And he would set that up.

 

A: I have heard, as many as 3,000 professionally-trained assassins around the world.

 

T: During the Bush and Reagan administrations, if you’ll recall, there wasn’t much terrorism in the United States, as we see it today. There’s a reason for that. We kept them busy. We kept them trained. You know, a terrorist needs to have their hands busy and their minds busy. Otherwise they’re going to be doing deeds that we don’t care for. This administration doesn’t believe in doing that, so they’re – what they’re seeing is a lot of these highly-trained people, disgruntled, doing things in the world.

 

They talk about the number of terrorist attacks in the world being down. That’s true. But the number in the United States is up.

 

A: Yes. And I think that they’re using a lot of these provocateurs in these terrorist-attacks in order to make the militia look bad.

 

Let’s talk about West Texas, for example. They just give up today, the Republic of Texas. I would wager anybody that they had an agent provocateur in among those people.

 

What do you think about that?

 

T: I believe that that’s a very, very plausible explanation for what’s going on.

 

A: And the reason being, in order to give the militia a black eye, the patriot movement a black eye.

 

T: We received a call, I believe last week, concerning one of the provocat—one of the members of this Republic of Texas thing. He knew the man, and he’s just not the man he knew. Perhaps he’s on some scopolamine or something.

 

A: Well, you say “we” received a call. What do you mean?

 

T: Well, during one of the radio-shows I…

 

A: Oh, yeah, right, right, right, right, right.

 

OK, on this radio-show.

 

(CROSS-TALK)

 

A: Well, let’s go more into detail about this archer-team. How would you comprise an archer-team?

 

What were they comprised of, five-man teams?

 

T: It’s a four-man archer-team. Depending on the mission, you would have a recon man, at least two snipers, or two assassins. Depending on – if that’s what you’re going to do. If you’re not going to assassinate, then you don’t need those, so you need just – sometimes we delivered computer-technicians into other countries to collect data, to move financial accounts around, so that certain leaders wouldn’t have access to their money, and we told them, you know, “If you want your money, do what we say.” They did.

 

A: So, an archer-team could receive any assignment, and everybody’s highly specialized, trained. Were these archer-teams, were they contract people, like civilians, or were they actually trained CIA personnel?

 

T: Some of them were trained Mossad agents, some of them were trained British intelligence agents, some were Danish intelligence agents. The more notorious were Turkish intelligence.

 

A: Well, at 25,000 and 50,000 dollars per assignment, I imagine they were standing in line to get out there, weren’t they?

 

T: They couldn’t ask to come. They had to be invited.

 

A: OK.

 

(BREAK)

 

A: (AUDIO GAP) archer-teams, four-man – they can be civilians, or members of the Company, right?

 

T: Members of OSG, which is an international intelligence network.

 

A: International intelligence network, including some of our allies, Turkey, Holland, and so forth.

 

Did you have any Scandinavians involved in this?

 

T: Yes. One called “the Viking,” as a matter of fact, code-named “the Viking.”

 

A: Was he Norwegian, Swedish, Danish?

 

T: Norwegian, a very good friend.

 

A: Oh. Well, I’m Norwegian. That’s why I was wondering about that.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

And so, how would you receive your orders? I mean, would you – would somebody hand you a piece of paper, or would they call you and say, “Hey, go to such and such a place and be briefed”?

 

T: On occasion, they were couriered in to us. We were always – the commanders of the OSG’s were always positioned in a place where they had access – where we had access to secure lines. So the courier would come in, and we would contact the office.

 

A: And they would say, “Contact the office,” you’d contact the office, and be given your assignments.

 

And who would put the teams together? Like, you would only work with somebody for a couple of weeks, then you’d – they’d split you off, decompartmentalize you, you wouldn’t know the man’s last name?

 

T: Well, depending on where the operation was – say, if it was in Colombia, we would have our Colombian desk officer take care of it from there.

 

He would assign the teams. The – I would assign the aviation-support to those teams. And we’d (CROSS-TALK)

 

A: And did he have access – did he know, say, 3,000 men around the world he could call upon?

 

T: He knew of the people in his arena, of the network that he had set up. That’s who he would assign on the mission. If the mission were into Germany, we would have a man in Germany. He would know who his network was, who he would work with. We were very compartmentalized in all that we did.

 

I know the desk-officers, the men in charge, the area-supervisors of these specific areas. They know who their networks are. We had what’s called “interface,” which was the position that would – everything would go through, so that dissemination wasn’t made down through. It was a fail-stop.

 

A: Well, but you still didn’t know their last names, just knew them by “Haystack,” or…?

 

T: Now, that was during Vietnam. That’s something completely different.

 

During the OSG times – areas, arenas, yes, I knew the last names of the people I was dealing with, but I didn’t know the names and the last names of the people that were assigned by the desk-officers.

 

A: Yes. But, when you’d get together, would you exchange that information?

 

T: No.

 

A: OK.

 

Regulations, right?

 

You’d go on your assignment and then the – at what stage would you be paid?

 

T: Right up front.

 

A: Right up front. So you’d get 25,000 on the front end?

 

T: That’s correct.

 

A: What did you do with your money?

 

T: Tucked it away.

 

A: Is that what you’re living on now?

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

T: Absolutely not. The government took it.

 

A: They give it away – they give it, and then they take it away, huh?

 

T: Don’t put it in the banks.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: Well, you should put it in a shoe-box, and put it under the bed, then, huh, right?

 

T: Did that too.

 

A: Well, they found that too, didn’t they?

 

T: That’s right.

 

A: When they searched it.

 

T: They took the dry wall off the walls of the home, looking for it.

 

A: Did they go out in the yard with the – what do they call it? – to look for metal and look see if you had a metal box buried out there?

 

T: And looking for the PVC pipe, yes, they did.

 

A: Oh.

 

Well, who did this, the FBI?

 

T: No, the agency did.

 

A: Oh, the agency did, huh?

 

This is at the time you were arrested? You said you were arrested by the FBI, though.

 

T: This was some time since I’d been arrested, not initially. I mean, the house was given back to us – well, the money for the house, when it was sold, was offered to us, the $60,000 for a $280,000 house, but it was only worth 60,000 in the auction because it was so torn apart.

 

A: Well, Chip, we’re going to have to continue this…

 

(BREAK)

 

A: (AUDIO GAP) by giving your address. And, folks, take this address down and tell these people what you have to offer in the way of records of books and reports.

 

T: Well, I think the biggest thing I have are the documents, which can be used in a court of law to prosecute these people for the crimes of trafficking cocaine into the United States, these government employees, these people who were paid by your hard-earned tax-dollars, millions and millions of dollars for their efforts – the cost was, probably in the billions for what went on down there, while they were lining their pockets with gold from the cocaine that they were shipping up. Those documents are available, as the “Tatum Chronicles,” at 1-800-201-7892. That’s 800-201-7892, extension 58. For those of you out of the country, it’s 417-625-0303.

 

A: Now, understand, folks, Chip is a 25-year deep-cover CIA agent. He has furnished, for those of you who have not heard him before, unbelievable information about behind-the-scenes activities. And what he’s offering to you is documentation.

 

You – we had a caller, I think on our second or third show, “How do we know you’re for real, Chip?” Well, here’s the documentation, folks. All you have to do is call that number and get it.

 

What does this cost, Chip?

 

T: It’s 19.95 plus shipping and handling.

 

A: And believe me, folks, that’s a bargain. Chip’s not trying to get rich on this – these activities and by furnishing these reports. He’s just trying to recover his money and get the word out, as we are also trying to do.

 

Chip, you know, since you’ve been on the air – this is, as I said, the third or fourth or fifth show – we’ve talked about the downfall of Communism, Chinese Communists, the training in the CIA. We’ve talked about Ollie North quite a bit, his activities. By the way, he’s – do you think that Bill Clinton will stop off in any of those air bases he set up for his drug-operation down in South and Central America? There are five of them, you mentioned.

 

T: Yes.

 

A: And I doubt it. Don’t you?

 

T: Oh, I seriously doubt that.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

(CROSS-TALK)

 

T: There are some very unhappy people down there. They left a trail of bodies.

 

A: Yes.

 

Natives?

 

T: And local politicians and – yes.

 

A: Well, so Bill won’t be stopping at any of those bases.

 

We talked about Nixon, President Nixon, how he gave the order on Operation Red Rock. We talked about the Pegasus group, that’s the spies spying on the spies. You know, we have a long ways to go, Chip, and I don’t think we’re going to make it with this show and the show tomorrow, which is going to be the sixth, this is the fifth and sixth shows.

 

Chip, why don’t we talk a little bit about the money-laundering in – particularly in Colorado. The folks in Colorado who heard the show last – over the last several series have made questions and made phone calls and said, “Hey, what about this money-laundering over here in Colorado?” Why don’t you talk about that a little bit?

 

T: Well, I know that moneys were, you know – the problem you have when you’re shipping huge quantities of cocaine and making a lot of money in – is, what do you do with the money? I know the United States engaged in a big operation called “Operation Green Belt,” which was “follow the money,” let’s see where this money’s going, so we know who’s involved in this stuff. And that took down, I understand, attorneys and judges and everything in South Florida.

 

So understanding that the problem you have is, what to do with these greenbacks, once you get them, it was decided that it’s very easy to launder those in the form of construction and construction-moneys. I think they chose several states in the United States to do this in, due to the banking laws. I know that Colorado, if you – and I know Norwest (sp?) wasn’t in Colorado at the time, but, using that as an example, if you banked at one Norwest, back in I guess the early 80’s, you didn’t necessarily – or there wasn’t banking privileges at another Norwest branch. Branch-banking wasn’t in place at that time.

 

So these are specific, separate accounts that can be set up. Also, there wasn’t licensing for mortgage-brokers, mortage-bankers, mortgage-lenders, in Colorado, speaking specifically of Colorado, so that they weren’t controlled, they weren’t audited.

 

A: It’d be natural they would target Colorado, then.

 

T: Sure. That was a prime area.

 

And by utilizing construction moneys, a small mortgage-company or a mortgage-lender could go in, and they could provide construction-loans to builders, and that’s the one thing a builder is always shy of, you know, he needs construction-money, he needs to get that house built for these people, and he needs to get it built quick.

 

So, by providing construction-moneys in to these builders, two things were done. First of all, it provided homes readily available in the marketplace. The second thing it did is, it availed drug-money to be laundered.

 

A: OK.

 

(BREAK)

 

A: (AUDIO GAP) we’re talking about money-laundering, and you were talking about, you know, against the – they go into the building-profession, it gives the builder an opportunity to get cash, and then get the money and get the house up in an expedited fashion, right?

 

T: They looked at it as being able to help in providing the American dream.

 

A: OK.

 

And then – of course, that happened in Colorado. What about other states?

 

T: You know, I can’t talk about other states, because I wasn’t there. I’m not sure – I know that two pipelines were in the – one was into Ohio, and one was into Arkansas.

 

A: Yes.

 

T: What was done with those moneys in those states I don’t know.

 

A: Well, you know, Arkansas – I mean, that was set up – you know, the money from Mena, Arkansas, Arkansas Development Finance Authority, that money went to Rostenkowski’s bank in Chicago and a BCCI Bank in Atlanta and also one in Florida. You’re aware of that, I guess, aren’t you?

 

T: I’ve heard that, that’s correct, yes.

 

A: Yes, and I’ve heard that from many sources.

 

T: Yes.

 

A: Well, let’s go back and talk about, who in Colorado would be involved, what bankers? Can you name those?

 

T: Well, I don’t think I will right now, only because its viability could be real high, in talking about civilian entities. I would like to first be able to do that to a subcommittee.

 

A: Well, maybe we can arrange for a subcommittee. Any of you folks out there have any influence over Congress, congressional subcommittees? Give us a call, 702-876-5208, or you can call Chip, write to him at his address, which is what, Chip?

 

T: Post Office Box 895082, Leesburg, Florida 34789.

 

A: And this is an open invitation.

 

And what about some of the politicians involved in Colorado? Can you name some of those?

 

How about Neil Bush (sp?), wasn’t he involved in banking in Colorado at that time?

 

T: Absolutely. Right in the middle of everything.

 

A: Oh, OK, so we did get a name out of you, then.

 

T: There’s one for you.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: Well,…

 

T: You know, another name I probably am pretty comfortable, simply because he’s been pushing it a pretty long time, you know, and it’s right dead on, is Mr. Milman (sp?), with his group, Larry Mizell (sp?) and the MDC (sp?) Group, all of that group.

 

A: OK…

 

T: … heavily involved in illegal moneys.

 

A: Yes, yes. OK.

 

OK, let’s go back now. Let’s talk about how this takes place, the mechanics of it.

 

T: The mechanics are real basic, Ted.

 

You know, as the FBI, if large deposits, cash deposits are made into a particular account, I believe you guys are made aware of that, is that correct?

 

A: Well, I think that the Treasury Department is.

 

T: Treasury? OK.

 

So, in order to offset that, the depositor needs to have documents for that banker, so that the banker doesn’t get in trouble by making that deposit without reporting it, in to Treasury.

 

So, what happens is, if we take a $100,000 loan, for example, the money’s lent to the builder, the builder builds the facility, then the permanent mortgage money pays off that loan at the final closing. At that closing, it’s – right now it’s certified checks that you’ll get, from the title-company, but back then it wasn’t necessarily that, it may have been a certified check, but it wasn’t stated what it was, it just said returned to, say, ABC Mortgage. And it’ll have the dollar-amount, $108,000, or something like that, including the interest that you get on your money.

 

So they were not only getting that, their money laundered, but they were getting interest. They would open up – for this example, we’ll use ten basic accounts. Say they opened one at Silverado. They opened one maybe at Women’s Bank. They opened one – at ten different banks, or ten different branches around the Denver area, or even into Colorado Springs, maybe even into Grand Junction. And they would take these, 100,000, 106,000 dollars, whatever it was, the certified check that they’d get from the title-company, and they’d put it in Bank One, and the banker wouldn’t question it. They’d go to Bank Two, and they’d take $106,000 in cash, which is drug-proceeds, they’d put it in Bank Two. The banker, you know, may say, the vice president of the bank, or whatever, might walk up and say, “Well, you know, what’s the source of these funds?” And they could pull out the closing-statement and say that it was a closing.

 

So, after a few deposits, it was never questioned from then on. They understood it was a question. And they just did the same thing at Bank Three with the same closing-statement, Bank Four with the same closing-statement, Bank Five with the same closing-statement,…

 

A: In separate accounts, though?

 

T: In separate accounts.

 

A: Separate new accounts.

 

T: (CROSS-TALK) at separate banks, so that this $100,000 all of a sudden became a million dollars, laundered.

 

A: Right.

 

And then, how would they draw that money out, eventually? Through their own discretion? And whatever they wanted to draw it out for?

 

T: Sure. It’s company moneys, clean company moneys, at that point.

 

A: Yes.

 

And they used it to run their businesses then, right?

 

T: Buy real estate nationally, run the businesses, you bet!

 

A: And, from that money, they’d go into so-called “legitimate” businesses, and they’d be on their way.

 

T: That’s right, and that’s basically how, you know, proprietary companies are set up and run.

 

A: Now, did they change the banking-law so that that doesn’t happen any more?

 

T: Well, the way it can’t happen right now is, it can’t happen at Norwest Bank. You know, it’s really hard to go and have ten accounts in the same company and make those deposits.

 

But if you go to Key Bank, or Norwest Bank, or, you know, Bank One, you know, separate accounts, they don’t report to one another, so I suppose (CROSS-TALK)

 

A: … you can open up bank-accounts at different banks?

 

T: Sure.

 

A: And, because there’s not going to be any cross-check on it, then.

 

T: That’s correct.

 

Maybe at Federal Reserve there is, and, if Federal Reserve asks about a particular deposit, they could show a document and say, “Yeah, here you go,” with a…

 

A: Yeah.

 

Well, Federal Reserve, I mean, that’s another entity altogether, and they’re not part of the government. They’re a private corporation, held very tightly, and you know what they’re up to. They take the money from the IRS – the IRS is not a private corporation – and give it over to the World – International Monetary Fund.

 

T: Well, they’re not going to question their people’s proceeds.

 

A: Exactly. That’s what I’m saying.

 

T: Yes.

 

A: OK.

 

(BREAK)

 

A: Are you there?

 

T: I’m here, Ted.

 

A: Chip, let’s talk about MIA/POW’s. That just galls me.

 

You know, we left 8,400 MIA’s in North Korea. We left between 35,000 and 50,000 GI’s in Russia after World War II, did not go after them. Patton said he was going to go after them personally, he died shortly thereafter.

 

We have, in Southeast Asia, from the Vietnam War, we had, what?, over 2,400, 2,500, that we left behind, unaccounted for. These are boys that are fighting for their country, and, I mean, it just galls me to think that our government is not going out there and trying to find them on behalf of the survivors, and because of the boys themselves.

 

And you mentioned on one of the earlier shows, Chip, how you were sent over to Europe, to find a couple of them, you found them, and they were in the control of what?, the Communist countries, weren’t they?

 

T: Communist bloc countries, that’s correct.

 

A: Yes, what about this MIA/POW’s? Other than that, why don’t you just kind of briefly review that case again, and then can you tell us if there are any other cases involved or any other instances where you can talk about it?

 

T: Sure.

 

Mr. Colby was quite concerned, I guess. His history of valor during World War II, you know, he – the one thing he didn’t want is, he didn’t want these boys to go unnamed or, you know, unchased. We needed to chase them, we needed to find them, we needed to do something about them, but, once we did it, it was up to the administration to go from there, and – you know, to get whoever was blocking that, whether it be at secretary of state level, state department level, or at the executive office level. He couldn’t get it beyond there. I think he was completely frustrated with that, and, to be honest, I’ve spent a lot of time, a lot of man-hours, and it’s not so safe, in the 70’s, late 70’s, walking around Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria, trying to track down these people, questioning, and, on the second side of that, trying to document contacts with agents. So, you know, it’s a pretty precarious business.

 

A: Well, what’s you’re saying is, in the 70’s, you were behind the Iron Curtain, and trying to locate these boys, and did you speak the languages?

 

T: We knew – we worked in a team. I had a female that worked along with me. She was great. She spoke, I think, seven different languages. I was known as just an American on vacation.

 

A: Yes.

 

T: They knew who I was.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: Did they know who she was?

 

T: I don’t think that they knew who she was. I believe that she was doubling up.

 

A: Oh, she was a double agent?

 

T: Sure. We were providing information in to her, so that she could use that to buy information from them, simply to try to locate some of these boys over there.

 

A: And it worked, though, didn’t it?

 

T: It did. We were able to come up with two names from over there. Those were passed in and verified back at – back to Mr. Colby, and I don’t know that anything ever went from there.

 

A: Do you know if their relatives were notified?

 

T: I don’t, and I have someone – let me say, thanks to Joe. Joe has been working hard at trying to come up with the actual names. I know one was a Capt. Hill or Hull or, you know, something to that effect, and – but, beyond that, I believe he was a pilot, I don’t think he was a ground-pounder. The other one I just can’t beat my head enough to get it to come out.

 

A: Well, Joe is – who’s Joe?

 

T: Joe is a gentleman – I think Joe is out in Louisiana – that’s researching with some people that he has that work with the MIA efforts and KIA efforts.

 

A: And, of course, you’re aware of Red McDaniel (sp?) with the merican Defense Institute?

 

T: Oh, yes, I am.

 

A: Yes. Red and I are good friends, and Red has been looking for MIA/POW’s for some time. The last time I talked to him, he said he thought he was going to get a big break on it. Of course, the administration’s blocking it.

 

Oops, time for another…

 

(BREAK)

 

T: … freedom, I think…

 

A: Chip, I’m…

 

T: You know, when people talk about the Geneva Convention and whether – when it comes to the Geneva Convention and following rules of engagement and so forth, the United States military is probably one of the only countries that comes close to that. When you’re captured and held prisoner, the atrocities that United States servicemen endure shouldn’t be expected of anyone. It should be the sole purpose of the United States, when they lose one man, as a prisoner, to get that man back.

 

A: I agree 100 percent, but it’s being blocked by guys like Richard Armitage (sp?), or, you know – or given just lip-service about it, saying they don’t exist, Richard Armitage being a former deputy secretary of state, I believe. And what about that? I mean, who…

 

T: I think the Department of Defense needed to get some balls beneath their belt and do something about it. Excuse the language, Ted.

 

A: It’s all right. It’s very – you know, very appropriate, I would say, under the circumstances. This is one of the – my pet peeves, yes, but somebody’s blocking the Department of Defense, they’re blocking the State Department. It seems like, every time you turn around, there’s a problem.

 

I heard, Chip,…

 

T: Listen, Ted, when it gets right down to brass tacks, if that chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff decides to do something, you don’t think he can do it?

 

A: Well, even that – what about the president?

 

T: What about him?

 

A: You think he can overrule the president?

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

T: There are so many third-world countries in the world. You know, that’s a big army. If that chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff says, “Mister President, we’re going in to get this guy…

 

A: Well, the president would immediately…

 

T: (CROSS-TALK) sit down and relax,” I think that he would be allowed to do that.

 

A: I think the president would probably let him go right away, don’t you?

 

T: Well, I don’t know. I think that they’re chosen ahead of time so that that would never happen.

 

A: Exactly!

 

OK. That’s the key. Absolutely. You’re 100-percent right.

 

But, you know, the fact remains. Our boys have been left behind, thousands upon thousands of them, and nobody’s going after them, and I think it’s tragic.

 

Now, I’ve heard that every president since Nixon has known about the MIA’s being over there, and yet administration after administration says they’re not there. There is a huge cover-up here. And I don’t know what we can do about it. Do you have any thoughts on that? I mean, Red McDaniel with the American Defense Institute is doing everything he can do. But what else can we do? What can the American people do?

 

T: Well, they can demand of their senators, you know, this is what we want done. You know, the American people are very…

 

T: … same as they do on opinion-polls. If the issue isn’t addressed, then it’s not an issue. If the American people started addressing it in letters, or in whatever, and it comes in en masse, then it becomes an issue, then it becomes something that they need to deal with, instead of the get-tough-on-crime stuff and throw all these corner drug-dealers or…

 

A: Time for a break, Chip.

 

(BREAK)

 

A: Why would the administrations, from Nixon on, and the State Department, why do they not want our boys to come home? I – that’s a question that’s just been nagging at me for years.

 

T: Well, not only you. Here I was, over in the Communist-bloc countries, on a three-year – it was scheduled for three years, Mr. Bush was – when I think about it – was the director of the CIA at the time, when we found those two boys, and within six weeks after finding them, I was shipped back to the U.S. That was done. I was off to Colorado.

 

A: And you never heard anything more about it.

 

T: Never heard anything more about it.

 

A: Have you talked to Red McDaniel about these two boys?

 

T: I haven’t talked to Red, no.

 

A: Would you make a note of doing that?

 

T: I will.

 

A: Because I know that he’s a very dedicated man to this cause.

 

Now, we have Senator – is it McCain down in Arizona? Senator – what’s the senator’s name who’s a former POW?

 

(CROSS-TALK)

 

T: I don’t know.

 

A: Well, he’s a senator down in Arizona, and he was a POW.

 

T: Yes.

 

A: And I don’t think we’re even getting support from him that we should have.

 

(CROSS-TALK)

 

T: They’re on to other parts of their lives.

 

A: Well, yes.

 

(CROSS-TALK)

 

T: I’m telling you, politicians think that the American people, their sole purpose is to get tough on crime. You know, there’s not a criminal activity or a criminal act that can be done, other than capital offenses, that a person should be in prison for more than five years on, and, you know, most other countries agree with that. But we’re filling our prisons with guys who made a false statement to the IRS, which all of us have done, they’re going to prison for 10 to 12 years, because they took it to trial. That’s crazy!

 

A: Well, they’re political prisoners.

 

T: Sure. Yup.

 

A: And that’s what this is all about. They’re putting these people in jail because they’re, quote, “anti-government.” But they’re not anti-government. They’re anti-corruption, and it looks as if exposed the dirty politicians and the people that are involved in this drug-operation.

 

Besides that, most drugs – I mean, most crimes that are committed in this country are because of drugs and the CIA bringing the drugs in like by the planeload.

 

T: That’s true.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

That’s the primary impression of the people that I met when I was in prison, other than the white-collar crime people. And, like I say, there’s not a white-collar crime that exists that a person should be in prison for over five years for. That’s absurd. You know, it doesn’t do the – it more than imprisons them for their crime, and it doesn’t do anything to rehabilitate them, because the Federal Bureau of Prisons does not rehabilitate any longer.

 

A: You know, I was watching A & E over the weekend. They had a program about the prison-system, and how they’re so crowded, and they said that something like they’re 40% overcrowded in this country, and – but I personally know that there are eight prisons in the state of Texas that are staffed, but there’s no inmates in there.

 

T: Yes.

 

A: Don’t you find that interesting?

 

T: That’s real interesting. But you know, with the prison-system industries that they have, those are big-dollar entities, and they need to staff those industries. You know, Unicor (sp?) is a self-supporting entity that makes millions and millions of dollars every year.

 

A: Well, not to mention the fact that the construction itself is worth millions of dollars.

 

T: Sure, and done by inmates.

 

A: That’s right. That’s right.

 

And also, Chip, I have reliable information that they’re using federal prisoners to convert these military bases over to internment camps and concentration camps. They’re paying them 5.50 a day, and they’re sending them on out to work in these various locations. Had you heard anything about that?

 

T: I have some friends who went off to a work-detail from prison.

 

Yes, that’s exactly what they do. They use inmate-labor. You know, they get the engineering done. They sub that out. And they have a – they support that labor and those contracts with manpower, and labor-manpower and pay the inmate 12 ½ cents an hour.

 

A: Well, they’re building all these prisons, huh? You know, you -- kind of makes you wonder why. Well, I’ve got an idea why, because I think, when the martial law comes, they’re going to round up a bunch of us and they’re going to throw us into those various locations.

 

T: Yes, I think you’re dead on.

 

A: Yes, I know I am.

 

So we’ve got to make hay while we can, folks.

 

Now, let’s go back. You know, I’ve got so many things I want to ask you about and talk to you about. How about the CIA recruiting of civilians? That’s very common, isn’t it?

 

T: Contractor asset-talents. You know, whenever you need something in particular, you’re always looking for someone who’s good at what they do.

 

A: And very common?

 

T: Sure.

 

A: And do you have any…?

 

T: I understand, by newspaper articles recently, though, that that’s being restricted to agents. You know, they’re no longer able to set up their network unchecked. You know, they have to go through a intensive screening-process now, to see if the person who’s providing the services, you know, are – how would I put it? – moral enough to provide those services.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: Well, what you’re saying is, there’s too many of them are exposing the operation, and they’re concerned about it.

 

T: Yes, that, plus the – with media – yes, with media out there, media is finding that, hey, these guys really aren’t priests out here that are – or priest-quality that are working at talents or assets to the CIA, these guys are pretty bad guys.

 

A: Well, you’re talking about alternative media saying that. I don’t see the mainstream media saying much about it.

 

T: Well, I did. I think I read it in the “New York Times” or “Wall Street Journal,” I saw that, where the CIA had said that they were dumping about 1,000 assets, out of the Central and South America arena.

 

A: Yes, I saw that also, but that doesn’t say much about what’s left over either.

 

T: Yes, that’s correct.

 

A: And that doesn’t necessarily curtail their activities, or the direction of their activities.

 

T: And that’s true.

 

A: Well, you know, Chip, I’ve talked to a number of people who were involved with the CIA, and they don’t ever give you a contract, and they don’t ever sign on the dotted line, so that later on, if something goes bad, you cannot prove that you were a CIA agent, or involved in the CIA, right?

 

T: Like the antique business, it’s an all-cash business.

 

A: All cash, and no contracts signed.

 

T: No contracts, no documents to follow up in, and get anyone to say, “Hey, you know, I was working for these guys.” That’s because, you know, under Rule 12.3 of Federal Criminal Procedures [i.e., Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure], an intelligent asset, or someone working for intelligence or law-enforcement, is exempt from criminal activity, if they’re doing it in the name of the United States.

 

A: Yes, but then they can turn right around with no proof, and put you in jail for illegal activity, which is what they’re doing.

 

T: Right. If you can’t show that you’re an intelligence asset, that’s exactly right, and that’s how they get away with it.

 

A: Break time.

 

(BREAK)

 

A: Chip, you mentioned on one of your shows here recently about all the attorneys that are in prison for various reasons, I guess because they took on the government, right?

 

T: Most of them were the successful attorneys who were able to successfully defend their clients time after time in federal court, you know. Most of them end up not being able to pursue their career very long.

 

A: Well, are you talking about people like you when they came in and arrested you through the legal process, and they were too good for the federal prosecutors, so they put them in jail, to get them out of circulation?

 

T: That’s one thing they did, one strategy they used on Gotti, if you’ll recall. They took his attorney, who had successfully defended him on several occasions, placed him under a federal investigation, so he could not defend him in Gotti’s trial, and subsequently got a conviction on Gotti.

 

A: And what happened to his attorney, do you know?

 

T: After the trial, he was released from investigation and was able to practise as he wanted.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: Well, that’s called “dirty politics.”

 

How many attorneys have you run into when you were in the system?

 

T: Gee! 30 or 40.

 

A: Oh, unbelievable! What do they have to say about it?

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

T: Well, and these were prominent attorneys. They weren’t just, you know, little guys working in sweatshops.

 

A: What did they get them on, Chip?

 

T: One of them – I know one in particular was gotten on – he was set up by the DEA in making a – I guess they made a cash payment to him, and he had a safe in his office, and he put the cash in his safe, and about once a month he’d go down and deposit cash, and historically it showed that once a month he’d deposit cash. But because he didn’t, within three days or whatever, fill out a form and report that cash, they got him on some type of tax-fraud or something, by not filling out the form within a certain amount of time.

 

A: Well, where there’s a way, there’s a will, and these fellas know all the tricks of the trade.

 

(BREAK)

 

A: (AUDIO GAP) talked about, for those of you would could not tune in the first hour, we talked about money-laundering, how the money is laundered, the drug-money is laundered, particularly in Colorado, because of the weak banking-laws, we talked about the MIA/POW’s, how the various administrations have not come to the rescue of these young men, these brave men who fought for their country, and we talked about CIA recruiting of civilians, and about how successful attorneys who defend individuals against the prosecutors, against the U.S. government, successful attorneys are themselves set up, and sent to jail, so they can get them out of circulation.

 

It seems like we’re having some real serious problems in this country, Chip.

 

T: I believe we are having some real serious problems, Ted, and it’s all toward one purpose, I believe.

 

A: Which is that – what do you think that is? I know what I have my thoughts about.

 

T: I believe that there was a man who would be king of the world, and there are severals who love their elite positions and want to ensure those.

 

A: And we’re talking about United Nations, one world government, New World Order, and so forth.

 

T: That’s correct.

 

A: And I think it’s been on board since 1776, when Adam Weishaupt (sp?) himself set up, at the request of the Rothschilds, the Illuminati, and they’ve just made phenomenal strides, and the reason they have been able to succeed, and the reason they have been able to function as effectively as they have, is because the mainstream media has not exposed them, and in fact the mainstream media has been infiltrated, and the mainstream media is part of the control of all of us, because they are not keeping us informed. And that’s my real sore spot right there, among other things. We talked about MIA’s and POW’s.

 

You know, this last week I had Fox News in Dallas come talk to me, and I was on TV, I think, for Thursday or Friday night, and the theme of the interview with me was, “Why are more people turning to the alternative media and the radio talk-shows for the news, and away from the mainstream media?” And I told them, “It’s because we’re furnishing the truth and you people are not.” And I went through a few exercises with him, and gave him some documentation, and he says, “Well, have I been duped?” And I said, “Yes, you’ve been duped, you’re ignorant, you’ve not done your research.” And you know what? I couldn’t believe it. They put those statements, my answer to that question, on the tube. I was kind of surprised about that.

 

And – but anyway, it was a fair piece, but, as a counter to me, they put on the local head of the Anti-Defamation League, and, you know – and then they didn’t give me a chance to counter to him, but it was interesting. At least they gave us an opportunity to explain our position.

 

You know, I think it’s appropriate, Chip, to discuss drugs in Mexico and Bill Clinton going to Mexico. We’ve already talked about the 18 tons of cocaine that the CIA allowed to come up through Mexico into the United States, knowing full well it was headed for the United States, and also we haven’t really gotten into the details of the Mena operation, when Bill Clinton was governor there. And with Bill Clinton going down to Mexico, and – today, and talking to them, obviously, about the drug problem, and they’re talking about sanctions against the Mexican government and decertification and so on and so forth.

 

Why don’t you tell us a little bit about your personal knowledge of the Mena drug-operation when Bill Clinton was governor?

 

T: Oh, boy, the Mena drug-operation’s tough for me to talk about, only because, Ted, I don’t have a lot of personal knowledge. I know it was there. I know it existed. I know Barry Seal on April 10th talked to me a little bit about Mena, about what was going on, and even said that they were going to need instructor-pilots up there, not understanding exactly who I was when he was talking to me, thinking I was just a military person staffed -- or tasked with the mission in Honduras, not understanding that I was already with the Agency, and working for Mr. North and the NSC. He suggested that I would be able to get on with the CIA as a pilot and training would be, you know, available in different places around the U.S., and I think he mentioned Ohio as one of the places where training was going on. He talked about his operations in Mena, and how he was always after a good pilot.

 

A: OK. You said April 10th, of what year?

 

T: 1985.

 

A: 1985?

 

T: Yes.

 

A: And Barry Seal, do you want to explain to the audience who Barry Seal is?

 

T: Barry Seal was one of the – probably one of the most entrepreneurial drug-pilots there are. He worked many sides of his operation. He worked for the cartels, he worked for DEA, and he worked for the CIA, running drugs. That’s what he did. He flew drugs.

 

A: And he was so knowledgeable about what was going on that he decided that he was going to blow the whistle on some of these people?

 

T: I believe he did. What he did is, we sat down and I said, “You know, all you’re doing is digging yourself in deeper and deeper, Barry, when you don’t protect yourself and set something aside. You need to take – you need to list everything you know, whether you tape-record it, or whatever you do, and set it aside as an insurance-policy for yourself.”

 

And what he did is he said, “Well, why don’t I just tell something? Why don’t I tell you, and you get it put aside, you know.”

 

I said, “Barry, you know, I just want to know where these drugs that you’re carrying today are going. I’m not going to be your insurance-policy. I’ve got problems of my own.”

 

So he gave me what he called his “Boss Hogs List,” of people that he has direct knowledge that were involved, and how they were involved. I mean, this included foreign leaders. He talked about King Fahd providing millions and millions of dollars to start up their operation, get if funded, and get it going.

 

A: Time for a quick break.

 

(BREAK)

 

A: Barry Seal furnished you a list of his “Boss Hogs,” you call them?

 

T: That’s right. From countries around the world, the top dogs, bucks, or I should say “top hogs” who are – who were involved with them in some way, and, like I said, on the King Fahd issue, here it is in 1985, this list was done. It’s part of certified documents that I received from the Hondurans, that were filed with them in 1985, and, several years later, in his testimony, Mr. North comes to Congress and says that King Fahd gave them 15 million or some large million-dollar amount to start their operations down there.

 

A: Who are the other people on this list?

 

T: Well, in the U.S., he wrote, if you want to hear them…

 

A: Sure.

 

T: He – under the U.S., he has Casey, Bush, Kissinger, Haig, Gregg, Clarridge, Fernandez, North, Peroot (sp?), Rodriguez, Weld, Secord, Bilsey (sp?), Singlaub, Clair – Clair George, that’s what it is. Hard to read this handwriting.

 

A: You’re reading from his list?

 

T: Yes.

 

A: What are you going to do with that list?

 

T: I stuck it – I stuck a portion of the list in the “Chronicles,” for the readers to have.

 

A: OK. We’re on the second hour. Let’s tell the folks how to get the “Chronicles.”

 

T: The “Chronicles”…

 

A: (AUDIO GAP) as Harry Truman would say, “poppycock.”

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

T: Yes.

 

I had another word, but I won’t say it.

 

A: Yes. Well, “poppycock,” that’s what I’ll use.

 

T: OK.

 

A: OK. Any other names on that list, Chip?

 

T: Aw, jeez, it’s two pages, two pages with me.

 

A: You’re kidding!

 

T: No.

 

A: Two pages long? Any other prominent names on there? You can’t name them all, I guess.

 

T: I guess, with Mr. – well, yes, Clinton and Young are on there.

 

A: OK. And how about foreigners? How about people from…?

 

T: Let’s talk about the country that Mr. Clinton is in right now. The Salinas brothers, it says, but not Raul, not any particular name, speaking of both of them as being involved, Salinas brothers. A guy named Abrego (sp?). I think Mr. Abrego, Juan Garcia Abrego just received several life-sentences for his dealing in drugs.

 

A: He’s on the list?

 

T: He’s on this list, that’s correct.

 

A: Oooh!

 

Well, how about some of our friends over in Europe?

 

T: Oh, let’s look at the European side. We have some people out of Israel who are on the list.

 

A: Can you name them?

 

T: Kinshi (sp?), Mir (sp?) and Harari (sp?),…

 

A: Who?

 

T: … Rabin.

 

Then we’re back in to El Salvador: Duarte. Panama was Noriega, Harari, and Noriega’s brother, that was on here. I guess he had since died, though.

 

Let me see. Colombia, Ochoa (sp?), Leder (sp?), Navarro (sp?), Sarmiento (sp?), Duran (sp?), Ricardo, Prince B from Saudi. Quite an extensive list.

 

A: How about Europe and Asia, and Russia?

 

T: Nope, didn’t get into any of those.

 

A: So he didn’t get into Europe at all, then?

 

T: No.

 

A: Maybe we got some clean folks over there.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

T: Yes.

 

A: There’s got to be somebody involved over there.

 

T: Well, in Russia, someone was – with my last name was killed not long ago. So I don’t know that I want to go over there.

 

A: I guess not.

 

Well, what about Seal? Now, we mentioned on one of the shows earlier, he was gunned down, executed, supposedly by the Colombian cartel. But he knew too much, he was talking, and he was shot in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.

 

You remember the date he was murdered?

 

T: I don’t. I believe it was in January or February, outside a halfway-house, in 1986.

 

However, on the 30th of March, 1985, let me read you something out of the “Chronicles.” Notes on the back of a flight-plan from 1985 that were placed with the Honduran government and retrieved in 1995.

 

A: This is your flight-plan?

 

T: These are my flight-plans. It said, “Mr. North stated the following to the passengers, ‘One more year of this, we’ll all retire.’ Then he made a remark concerning Barry Seal and Governor Clinton. ‘If we can keep those hicks in line,’ that is, referring to the loss of moneys as determined the week prior, during their meeting in Costa Rica. I silently stood by the vats of leaves, listening to the conversation. Gen. Alvarez (sp?), Honduran chief of staff for the army, had gone with a Contra leader to discuss logistics. The other three, North, Rodriguez, and Amiram Nir, continued through the wooden building, inspecting the cocaine. North continued, “But he,” speaking of Vice President Bush, “is very concerned about those missing moneys. I think he’s going to have Jeb arrange something out of Colombia,” he told his comrades, not thinking twice of my presence. What North was referring to ended up being the assassination of Barry Seal by members of the Medellin cartel in early 1986.

 

A: Well, he mentioned Bill Clinton there, as a hick, right?

 

T: That’s what he mentioned.

 

A: “ Those hicks from Arkansas,” did he say?

 

T: Yes.

 

A: Yes.

 

So Seal and Clinton, apparently, were skimming off the top, and, based on this conversation, it would appear that. I can’t think – oh, time for…

 

(BREAK)

 

You know, Bill Clinton, he personally signed off on all the loan on the Arkansas Development Finance Authority, when it was established, and it supposedly was established for the purpose of providing loans to churches and schools and students, and one of the first loans went out to his buddy at Tyson chickens, 10 million dollars that was never repaid. None of the loans were ever repaid. They were using that, according to the “Clinton Chronicles” – by the way, folks, if you don’t have a copy of the “Clinton Chronicles,” it’s a video, you really have to buy it, and it’s available through me for $20, by the way, to Ted Gunderson, Post Office Box 18,000-259, Las Vegas, Nevada 89109.

 

But anyway, the loans were never paid back, and it’s been well documented, in this “Clinton Chronicles,” that Clinton knew about the drugs. Larry Nichols (sp?) personally told him about it. Larry was the marketing director for the Arkansas Development Finance Authority. And this was during the period that he was governor.

 

Now, he was told about it, and he made the statement, “Well, that’s a federal problem, not a state problem.” And, of course, now that he’s president, it obviously became a state problem, at that.

 

But this Arkansas Development Finance Authority was set up specifically to launder money, and to provide phony loans from the drugs to his buddies. And this is well documented in the “Clinton Chronicles.” You can send 20 bucks, 20 dollars to Ted Gunderson, Post Office Box 18,000-259, Las Vegas, Nevada 89109.

 

And not only that, there’s a witness in this “Clinton Chronicles” that says that Bill Clinton was sniffing cocaine, and so he not only, according to this “Clinton Chronicles,” was actively involved, or knew about it, at least through the Arkansas Development Finance Authority, in the distribution of cocaine that was coming in to Mena, Arkansas, arms in, drugs out, but, based on this girl, she said she attended parties and she saw him using cocaine. And, if you ever looked at Bill on television, you can see his nose, he looks like Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, by the way.

 

Have you ever noticed this, Chip?

 

T: As a matter of fact, I wrote an article, when I was in prison, about cocaine paranoia – I call it “cocaine paranoia” -- and it talks about the symptoms of cocaine, and how you can see that in our current sitting president.

 

A: Yes, and so, you know, we have some real outstanding people up there. We have George Bush, and we have Clinton, and every president, based on information that we have, since Nixon has known about the MIA/POW’s, and it’s all geared in one direction, to take over the country, to take over the world, One World Government.

 

T: Well, I know, after I had the article posted on the World Wide Web, on the Internet, one journalist came back to me and said, “How can you even say that you’re responsibly reporting anything when you write something like this?”, and my answer to him was, “I delivered three kilos of cocaine to the man. Let’s talk about responsible reporting.”

 

A: You delivered three kilos of cocaine to Bill Clinton?

 

T: To Bill Clinton, with a cooler of money, in 1984.

 

A: Where did you deliver these?

 

T: We delivered it in to Little Rock Air Force Base. We were met by three vehicles, a plain, unmarked police vehicle, which was driven by Buddy Young, a limo, and a van. Out of the limo stepped Dr. Lasater (sp?), who we delivered several coolers to. He walked over with another man, introduced the other man as the governor of Arkansas. We had two coolers, a heavy one, a light one marked “donor organs,” and the heavy one, it was all cocaine, and the light one, there was three kilos of cocaine and money. And a note saying “I owe you $25,000” that I stuck in there, sent the money to my friend and confidant Bill Colby, and Colby subsequently called me and said, “Stay out of it, Chip, let it go.”

 

A: What did he mean by that?

 

T: Just what he said. You know, it’s…

 

A: Stay out of what, I mean?

 

T: Don’t get involved with this.

 

A: With these people, huh?

 

T: That’s correct.

 

A: So you personally delivered three kilos to Lasater and Clinton at the airport in Little Rock?

 

T: Over 110 kilos to Lasater, three kilos to gov—three kilos went with Governor Clinton, into his limousine, and then Jackson Stephens (sp?) was the third man. He just stepped back into the limo, with Dr. Lasater, who was actually Dan Lasater, who was convicted of drug-trafficking, and it happened to be cocaine that he was trafficking.

 

A: And – yes. And Barry Seal, he was part of it, and he obviously – probably had more information on these politicians than you did. That’s why he was gunned down and murdered.

 

T: That’s correct.

 

A: Well, yes, that was kind of revealing. Do you have this in your “Clinton Chronicles” -- I mean, not “Clinton Chronicles,” but your “Tatum Chronicles”?

 

T: In the “Tatum Chronicles,” it’s there, it talks about on the 26th of February, I talk about the initial find in Honduras of the vaccines that was actually cocaine, and how I remember on that particular day delivering that cocaine to that governor.

 

(BREAK)

 

A: Before we go back to Chip,…

 

MARK: (AUDIO GAP) seemed like the European powers used…

 

(AUDIO GAP) claim we’re fed up. That’s basically all…

 

A: Do you have questions you want to ask Chip?

 

MARK: Well, who all’s involved, and why isn’t anything being – well, no, I got a better question, that – based on historical precedents, it seemed like the European powers used drugs to bring down the old Chinese Empire, back in the 18th and 19th century, and I would like to know if the same thing is being done here, because, from where I sit, I would – it seems to me that this is the case.

 

A: Go ahead, Mark – I mean, Chip.

 

T: I think that the drug-moneys are being done to take down the government, and I think it’s being done to take down the government as we know it today, and the Constitution as we know it today, and that, to help fund what they’re calling a “One World Government.” I believe that that’s what these heavy proceeds are going for. I don’t think that these people involved took all the money, because there are billions and trillions of dollars we’re talking about, and lining their pockets with…

 

MARK: Well, but the question I was asking, because the European powers used drugs, mainly opium and heroin, to bring down the population, so they’d be ripe for a takeover. I was wondering if that’s what they’re trying to do with us, to take us down without a shot, so to speak.

 

A: Yes, absolutely. I don’t think there’s any question about that. What do you think, Chip?

 

T: I’m with you, Ted, and Mark, the same, yes, absolutely.

 

A: Yes.

 

T: Now, Mark, let me tell you one way that drugs were brought out, during the 80’s, while you were down there, were brought out of Venezuela, is, in the refined petroleum, we could actually – they would actually put the cocaine. The petroleum would break it down and absorb it, and, when they got to where they were going, they would reprocess it and bring it out.

 

MARK: Right…

 

T: (AUDIO GAP) think of it.

 

MARK: Or it might have been earlier…

 

(AUDIO GAP) Well, how come no one’s bringing down the people responsible for this? I – you know, it just seems like there’s a lot of hypocrisy. They talk about a War on Drugs, yet the people making all the talk about this are the same ones that are actually fostering and encouraging it while profiting very handsomely in the process.

 

A: Mark, have you ever heard the expression, “the fox in the hen-house”?

 

MARK: Yes, sir.

 

A: That’s what’s happened here.

 

MARK: All rightee.

 

A: OK. Thanks for the call, Mark.

 

MARK: Bye bye.

 

T: You know, and one thing I’d like to say, Ted, in order to prosecute these criminals, they are federal crimes, and the attorney general needs to step forward and do this. But we all know whose pocket the attorney general’s in.

 

A: Well, yeah. I mean, they’re not going to prosecute themselves.

 

T: That’s right.

 

A: And they have the control, they have all the money, they have the power, and the American people are ignorant, by and large, and the mainstream media is not reporting the truth. And, you know, they’ve got – they have us coming and going, but fortunately there are more and more people becoming aware and educated of this, and people don’t trust the government…

 

(BREAK)

 

A: It’s OK to put questions. Go ahead.

 

CALLER: Can we trust Louis Freeh to rehabilitate the FBI to what it used to be?

 

A: The answer is no, a flat no.

 

CALLER: There’s a “Time” magazine article that shows – says that he, on occasion, has defied the White House.

 

A: Well, let me just tell you a little story, OK?

 

CALLER: OK.

 

A: I had a guest on, Robbie Stitch (sp?), here about two or three weeks ago. You apparently didn’t hear of the show. Robbie Stitch has information concerning a 21-year FBI veteran named Richard Paas, P-A-A-S. And, by the way, Chip, I want to discuss him one of these days with you, on one of these shows.

 

Anyway, Richard Paas was in the FBI, he was in the New York office, assigned to a covert operation, Long Island, New York, he had 17 men working for him. Once he became involved in this operation, he realized it was an Ollie North-CIA drug-laundering operation, and so he reported it to his supervisor in the New York office. His supervisor in the New York office ignored him. He wrote a letter to Judge Sessions, who was head of the FBI, director, at that time, and he ignored him. Then he wrote a letter to Congress. The next thing he knew, he was arrested for child-molestation by the FBI…

 

CALLER: Yes, I remember that…

 

A: The FBI does not – has no jurisdiction of child-molestation, and he’s now serving 30 to 50 years. His supervisor in the New York office was Louis Freeh.

 

Louis Freeh went from supervisor of the FBI in New York City to the U.S. Attorney to a federal judgeship to director of the FBI. Does that answer your question?

 

CALLER: That answers the question.

 

The second question that I had was, if you were chief of the FBI, was that chief of the field…?

 

A: I was head of – I was chief in three divisions.

 

CALLER: OK…

 

A: I was the head of the FBI Memphis office, and then I went to Da

 

A: … Dallas, a medium-sized office, and then I went from Dallas to Los Angeles, which is the second-largest office in the FBI, I had over 700 people under my command, a $22.5-million budget, and a tremendous amount of responsibility.

 

CALLER: I get the picture.

 

A: I was one of the top executives in my day, when I retired in 1979.

 

CALLER: Well, let me ask one question, and I’ll hang up, because your conversation is too valuable for me to take too much time, but…

 

A: No, this is all interesting.

 

CALLER: At what point in the history of the FBI did it lose its integrity and its honor? Can you pick a day? I’ll hang up and listen.

 

A: Yes,…

 

CALLER: And, Chip, I’m going to order your manuscript too.

 

A: Yes, OK, good.

 

I – you need to get a copy – call 702-876-5208.

 

CALLER: I’ve got that.

 

A: Obtain a copy of all my research and flyers that are available, and order some of that material.

 

And, as Chip says, make copies from my copies. I’m not in this to make money, I’m in this to spread the word.

 

CALLER: God protect you guys!

 

A: Thanks a lot.

 

And do you want to handle that one, Chip, his last question about at what stage did the FBI start deteriorating?

 

T: Some time after Hoover.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: That’s right!

 

Look, you’re laughing!

 

T: The problem is, not having competent leaders within these agencies to lead. You know, when you have political appointees who have no clue how to investigate crimes or how to gather intelligence, you have a real problem.

 

A: Well,…

 

ANNOUNCER: Ted, you’ve got another call, from Pennsylvania.

 

A: OK. Hang on, Pennsylvania. I want to answer some more comments here.

 

Also, Chip, the thing that’s surprising to me, why do they appoint federal judges to the director’s position? They don’t have any law-enforcement. They don’t know anything about, as you say, gathering intelligence. These people are neophytes, and they don’t know what in the world’s going on.

 

T: And they don’t have the respect of the people under them because of that.

 

A: That’s right. That’s right.

 

But actually, you know, we did not have one instance of corruption in the FBI when J. Edgar Hoover was there, and since then look what’s happened. We have FBI agents involved in espionage with the Russians. We’ve had Waco. We had Ruby Ridge. We had a sharpshooter, FBI sharpshooter, murder a woman with a baby in her arms. We’ve had the Oklahoma City cover-up. We had the World Trade Center cover-up. And it just goes on and on and on.

 

So, but, you know, an organization’s only as good as its leaders, and there’s no question about that.

 

Do you have any more comments you want to make about the FBI, Chip?

 

T: Nope.

 

(BREAK)

 

(CROSS-TALK)

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: OK with me.

 

T: You bet!

 

A: Anyway, folks, for those of you who did not hear the first hour – those on short-wave, of course, don’t pick up the first hour – we discussed money-laundering by the drug-operators, particularly in Colorado because of the weak banking laws, we discussed the MIA/POW issue, how our federal government has left the boys behind all over and around the world, we discussed CIA recruiting of civilians, and how they double-cross them, there’s no paper exchanged, there’s no contract, and, when it comes time and the individual looks like he might be turning some people in, like Chip is doing, one of two things: you go to jail, or they wipe you out. And we also discussed how many – the many, numerous prominent attorneys who are in jail because they successfully defended individuals against the federal government…

 

(AUDIO GAP)

 

T: Let me see what I can find here.

 

A: Let’s give it to the – for the benefit of this group, this first-hour group that didn’t hear the show yesterday, the second hour, do you have it handy there?

 

T: I sure do.

 

A: OK. Read some of those names off that Barry Seal told you about.

 

T: OK. On April 10th, I met with Barry Seal in an isolated airstrip in southern Honduras.

 

A: Barry Seal, do you want to explain briefly who Barry Seal was?

 

T: Barry Seal was a fairly nefarious quadruple agent. He was a plane for hire. He would fly the old Air America creed, anything, anywhere, any time, that was Barry, as long as there was a buck in it for him.

 

A: Air America being the CIA operation?

 

T: That’s correct.

 

Now, Barry also hoped to own his own proprietary airline. In other words, he knew where the real money was. He knew that the real money would come from the government, and that the government could give him aircraft and build an airline similar to Southern Air Transport, or Air America. And that’s what his hopes were, ultimately.

 

A: Southern Air Transport also being CIA.

 

T: That’s right. He wanted to own that, so he was more than willing to work for and protect the people that he needed to to ensure that he got that.

 

When we sat on that airport in San Lorenzo (sp?), Honduras, he gave me a list of people that he called his – the “Boss Hogs,” the people who he was aware of that had personal know—at least personal knowledge of what was going on with the Contra drugs, if not complicity. And he broke them down by countries. I don’t know – how much did we read on this yesterday, Ted?

 

A: We read quite a bit. You basically covered the world, except for Europe and Asia, I believe. But let’s concentrate just on the United States, at this point.

 

T: The United States, he wrote Casey, Bush, Kissinger, Haig, Gregg, Clarridge, Hernandez – I’m sorry, Fernandez, North, Peroot, Rodriguez, Weld, Secord, Bill Seed (sp?), Singlaub, and George – that was Clair George.

 

A: OK. And now let’s skip on, Chip, let’s go on up to where you personally delivered three kilos of cocaine to Bill Clinton at an airport in Arkansas. You covered that yesterday.

 

T: Right. Now, in the U.S. – under the U.S., he had Arkansas, Clinton and Young written there. Louisiana, he had – gee, I – it’s hard to read, something, oh, Barry’s buddy, Edwards. That must be the governor.

 

A: Now, this is – this is in his handwriting?

 

T: Some of it’s in his, some of it’s in mine.

 

A: OK.

 

T: And Marcellos (sp?).

 

A: Carlos Marcellos?

 

T: Huh?

 

A: Carlos Marcellos?

 

T: I have no idea.

 

A: Well, Marcellos is an organized-crime, Mafia figure.

 

T: He did say that they were mob people.

 

A; Well, Carlos Marcello is the mob in New Orleans.

 

T: OK, well, that’s who he had, Edwards and Marcellos.

 

A: Well, that brings it – once again, the CIA’s tied in to the mob, as is in the Kennedy assassination, which we’re going to discuss in one of these shows, one of these days.

 

T: He said he had the governor of Florida and Kentucky in his pocket, and also the mayor of Miami.

 

A: Well, there you go, folks, if you wonder why we can’t get anything done, as far as the drug-operations are concerned in this country. Talk to – tell us about Clinton now.

 

T: On – in 1984, prior to my time in Honduras, I was at Fort Campbell, Kentucky, at Task Force 160. We had unlimited flight-hours there, so it was never a problem if we had a mission, if someone needed something dropped off, it was dropped off to us, we’d fly a night-vision goggle mission across country and drop it off, just because we needed the training, and we needed the time in the aircraft. So, routinely we would receive large coolers from the Medevac unit at Fort Campbell, Kentucky, who happened to be down in Honduras in 1984.

 

A: Medevac being medical supplies?

 

T: That’s correct. We would – we received numerous coolers marked “Medical Supplies,” “Donor Organs,” and so forth, for delivery to different areas. I took some to Houston. I’ve taken ‘em to several locations in Arkansas. I’ve taken ‘em to Kentucky, Paducah and Owensboro.

 

On this one particular flight, we were taking the coolers to Little Rock Air Force Base. There were two coolers. There was a heavy one and a light one, marked “Donor Organs.” I always liked to check the contents of the supplies that were going on board my aircraft, and I’m going to tell you why I kept the contents of coolers, of medical supplies. Bill Colby once told me how Gen. Torrijos was replaced by Gen. Noriega, and it was done with a cooler on board Torrijos’ aircraft marked “Medical Supplies.” It wasn’t opened, it wasn’t checked. It blew up on the aircraft and killed everyone on board.

 

A: Right.

 

T: So, I always checked, especially when I get one marked medical supplies, I’m going to look in it.

 

A: Chip, if Colby told you that, then was the CIA involved in it? How would he know?

 

T: That would be an assumption, wouldn’t it? That or they had real good intelligence.

 

A: Well, one or the other. And why would they find out afterwards? It probably wasn’t those, you know.

 

(CROSS-TALK)

 

T: He didn’t state it, and I didn’t ask.

 

A: Right. OK, keep going, your story about…

 

T: At any rate, the light cooler had three kilos of cocaine, and the rest of it was filled with cash. The heavy cooler was all cocaine. I continued to – I taped it back up. I took some 25,000 out of it, left an I.O.U. in it, sent that 25,000 to Colby, and I asked him what was going on. I called him on the phone, and overnighted the money to him, asked him what the heck was going on here. And he said, “Chip, just stay out of it.”

 

(BREAK)

 

A: Chip, you mean to tell me that you opened up that medical cooler and you took 25,000 cash out, put an I.O.U. in there, whose name did you sign for the I.O.U., Santa Claus?

 

T: My own. I wanted them to call me. I wanted to know who the hell knew about it.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: OK. And then you – and then you wrapped the money up and sent it to Bill Colby?

 

T: Sent it to Bill , and then called him, told him that something was on the way, and told him what I found. And that’s when he told me just to stay out of it.

 

A: And you never heard any more about it?

 

T: Nope, didn’t hear any more about it from then.

 

A: And that meant Colby had to give that money back to somebody else then, didn’t it?

 

T: I would imagine so.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: Well, OK, what happened after that?

 

T: Colby wasn’t one to keep it. He was a good man.

 

A: Yes, he was a good man. Everything I’ve heard about him was positive.

 

Thank goodness we had him in there as long as we did. If we had had Bush in there the whole time, for 20 years, who knows what would have happened? Of course, he was pretty dangerous as a vice president, and also as a president. Keep going with your story there, Chip.

 

T: Well, at any rate, the mission was to – the actual mission was to take our aircraft down to Corpus Christi and get some avionics, special avionics put on board, but in the meantime we were to go – our route was to Navy Memphis, next stop was Little Rock Air Force Base, next stop was I thinkHouston Hobby – the Houston Hobby Airport, and then on down. The person to receive the goods – and it was a Dr. Lasater. Now, I had delivered cocaine-coolers to Dr. Lasater on several other occasions. So I was very familiar with Dr. Lasater, and he was normally accompanied by a plain-clothes policeman, Mr. Young, Buddy Young.

 

So, when we arrived, at about 10:30 that evening at Little Rock Air Force Base, no one was there. My instructions were to wait. So we got the aircraft postflighted and prepared to take off that night again. It – I guess it was about quarter after 12 before they finally showed up. A limousine came up. It was followed by a van. And then, behind the van, was a plain, unmarked police car. I recognized the driver of the police car as Buddy Young. The van, I didn’t recognize who was driving that. And the limo, three men stepped out of the limo. First there was Dr. Lasater. The next one was out, I didn’t know, and the third one I didn’t know. Dr. Lasater walked over to me with the second man out of the limousine, and introduced me to the governor of Arkansas. I thought it was quite an honor to meet the governor of Arkansas. I wondered who was getting which cooler.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: Well, wait a minute, wait a minute. The governor of Arkansas, did he name him?

 

T: Yes, he named him.

 

A: You’ve got us on the edge of our chair, Chip.

 

T: Bill Clinton.

 

A: Bill Clinton. OK. All right.

 

What did Bill have to say?

 

T: He – you know, he told me that I was going to make a lot of people very happy because of this, and it said, “Donor organs.”

 

A: Well, make a lot of people real – he didn’t know that you knew what was in it, then, huh?

 

T: That’s right. (CROSS-TALK)

 

A: Well, he was talking about a good cocaine party, is what he was talking about.

 

T: A great service to the great state of Arkansas, and…

 

A: And he thought you were talking about donor organs, huh?

 

T: That’s right.

 

The light cooler, my crew-chief unloaded it, Sgt. Knapp (sp?) unloaded it, and took it over to the limo, and then the heavy cooler went to – no, I’m sorry, the light cooler went to the van, and the heavy cooler went to the limo. Dr. Lasater and the man standing next to the limo got back in, and Lasater had introduced me to him as Jack Stephens (sp?), and I believe he owns Worthen Bank (sp?), or their subsidiaries, or something.

 

A: Yes.

 

These are all heavyweight people, folks.

 

T: The other cooler went to the van and departed with the governor of Arkansas. I can’t say he knew what was in it, but he was very happy to receive it.

 

A: Well, he said it was going to make a lot of people happy, and I guess that may have been part of his parties in a motel room that – if you folks don’t have the “Clinton Chronicles,” you really should get it. Call my number, 702-876-5208, and it documents Bill Clinton’s involvement in the drug-operation, the Arkansas Development Finance Authority, and the story and the song goes on and on and on.

 

By the way, folks, let me remind you again…

 

…to mention, as far as Bill Clinton is concerned on that…?

 

T: That’s my only…

 

A: Don’t tell me “claim to fame.”

 

T: … my only claim to fame with the governor of Arkansas, that’s it.

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

A: No, we won’t accept that.

 

Chip, being we have a couple of minutes, we probably could start, and then get into it in the second hour, or maybe we can cover most of it in this hour, what about the FBI? What knowledge do you have of the involvement of the FBI into these operations?

 

T: Well, I know, in later years, when I was working for the NSC, we had…

 

A: That’s the National Security Council.

 

T: That’s correct. We had a task force set up which included various agencies of the government, law-enforcement and intelligence, and we – one of my counterparts was an FBI agent out of South Florida.

 

A: What do you mean, a “counterpart”?

 

T: He had his side. He worked in OSG-1, which was the anti-drug task force, which, by the way, anti-drug task force was run by Mr. Bush, task force, so that you know that.

 

A: You mean, Jeb or George?

 

T: George. The vice president was assigned as the leader of the South Florida anti-drug task force.

 

A: That’s like having the fox in the hen-house.

 

T: Boy, wasn’t it?

 

A: Yeah.

 

So, what – was this FBI agent dirty, or was he clean, or not?

 

T: This particular FBI agent confided in me one afternoon, thinking that I was in on everything and agreed with everything that was going on. You know, I wasn’t in on it, I didn’t agree with it, but where the heck was I going to go when the vice president himself was involved in it?

 

A: What did he confide in you with?

 

T: He told me some of his operations, how he would pull prisoners out of the detention center in Miami, how the detention center had been flying cocaine in from Haiti for him, that he arranged to have picked up, and drop it off in Miami. He used the sheriff in one of the local South Florida, just below Okeechobee towns, or counties, and they would actually block off the road, land the aircraft onto the road, and then take off, and then they would allow cars to come back through that road.

 

A: And he confided in you that he knew that – and they were bringing drugs in to Miami?

 

T: Yup, sure did.

 

A: OK, time for a break.

 

T: As a matter of fact, he even gave me the guy’s name.

 

A: Oh, we’ll get into that in a few minutes.

 

(BREAK)

 

A: (AUDIO GAP) 25-year black-ops CIA undercover, and, Chip, we were talking about the FBI. What was this FBI agent’s name?

 

T: Still is an FBI agent, goes unchecked, he still pulls drugs in, and his name’s Terry Nelson in South Florida.

 

A: Barry Nelson, huh? OK. How long is your story? What else did he have to say to you?

 

T: Well, he passed on the name of one of the pilots that he – was one of his favorite pilots, and he even told me the story that this guy was so good and was so entrepreneurial that they told him that they wanted him to fly a load in, so he took him out on writ from a federal facility. The guy, without getting orders to go yet, went over to pick up, got a load from his contacts in Haiti, brought it back in, and no one was there to meet him because the FBI agents along with Nelson who were involved in this weren’t ready to pick it up, so, when he got in, he ended up having to call them, and they brought cars down and filled the trunks. Their weapons and their equipment were in the trucks, and then all this cocaine went in it too.

 

A: And how many agents were involved in that operation?

 

T: You know, he didn’t say. And I have been in contact with the pilot, and he’s still in federal prison, and I think he’s willing to come forward and let the world know what went on.

 

A: Well, the pilot is available then, huh, if he lives that long?

 

T: That’s right.

 

A: Well, let’s talk about that. I think you might need to catch up with each other and have a little conference and see what we can do about some of these items.

 

(CROSS-TALK)

 

T: You know, and one thing that I’ve talked about doing for agents and intelligence officers out there is forming a group called “Integrity.” I think that there are some things that need to be cleaned up, and Integrity is an ideal way to do it, with Web pages and with confidential information, sections where they can remain confidential as long as their credentials are in place and can be followed up.

 

A: You know, Chip, that’s a great idea. You know, I’m starting this organization, we call it the “FBI Foundation,” and I want to send over 7,000 letters out, and I’m asking for donations through folks, and, folks, if you will just send me a few bucks that I can use to get these letters out – it’s going to cost between 4,000 and 4,500 dollars – government, and it’s for you and I to have hooked up in the first place.

 

T: Their hands are tied, though.

 

A: Their hands are tied.

 

These fellas, who we know are honest, because there’s a lot of people…

 

… coordinate my project and your project, called “Integrity” – thousand –259, Las Vegas, Nevada 89109, for as soon as possible, and coordinate my project and your project, called “Integrity,” and try and get some of these fellas who we know are honest. There’s a lot of good FBI agents…

 

Let’s talk about that also off the air one of these days, as soon as possible.

 

Tell us – let’s go back to the FBI. Anything more on the FBI that you can tell me?

 

(AUDIO GAP) did he comment how many FBI agents are involved in this project?

 

T: No, but there were quite a few, and he did comment, had this use of Customs, and his ability to track – travelled the United States to arrange with certain law-enforcement and political officials…

 

They believe that they’re actually working for the…

 

(AUDIO GAP) receive this stuff in, you know, in covert operations. You know, it’s an amazing story, what Nelson has done, and how he was responsible for what – one of what was called the “northern routes,” where pilots can fly from Colombia to the Bahamas, from the Bahamas to Nova Scotia, to Canada, and then down into the United States from the northern route, and go unchecked.

 

A: You’re talking about (AUDIO GAP) Montana now.

 

T: Montana, North Dakota, sure.

 

A: Yes, well, there’s – I’ve heard information about that – the Montana operation for some…

 

Anything more on the FBI that we can discuss here, folks?

 

T: Not that I’m aware.

 

A: This is all you know about them – as far as your personal knowledge of their operations as it ties in to…?

 

(AUDIO GAP) and about this outstanding producer, Alan Frankovich (sp?). Frankovich introduced the documentaries “Gladio” and “The Maltese Double-Cross,” which outlines the corrupt CIA operations, terrorism, murder across the land – around the world, actually. Anyway, this gentleman was en route recently to testify on behalf of one of his informants, Les Coleman (sp?), who of course was arrested because of his exposure of these illegal CIA operations, and was being tried, and Mr. Frankovich was detained at the Houston airport by Customs officials, and died while in their control of a cardiac arrest, and I would have to say, if I had – was a betting man, and I’m not, but, if I was a betting man, I would say that those Customs officials were probably CIA agents. What do you think, Chip?

 

T: Well, that’s not really necessary. You know, they can be recruited. I mean, they’re – Customs is probably the most corrupt agency that the government has. So they’re easily recruited.

 

A: Do they teach these Customs agents to kill people like they do the CIA agents?

 

T: You know, all it takes is a binary poison. On a binary poison, you give the first section of the compound to the target, and then, within three weeks, you can hit him with the second part, so it never shows up as a poison, but it does give him a heart attack and all the symptoms of a heart attack, and it is a heart attack. However, you don’t – an autopsy doesn’t reveal a poison, it just reveals a compound that’s normally found in the body.

 

A: And this is one of the techniques they teach you in school, right?

 

T: Sure.

 

A: OK. In the first hour, folks, we were talking about the FBI…

 

Folks, we were talking about the FBI’s involvement in these nefarious activities, and Chip mentioned that there was an FBI agent, or probably still is in the service, named Terry Nelson out of Miami, South Florida, who was directly involved in the drug-operations bringing drugs into this country. He set up the northern route, which meant from South America, Central America, up along the coast, and then came back in through Canada into the Dakotas, North Dakota and Montana. And did you – is there anything more you want to add to that, Chip?

 

T: No, not to that. I would like to try to get into something that you had stated earlier about the girls Fortier and McVeigh.

 

A: Yes, would you please get into that, discuss it right now?

 

T: Well, you know, so the folks understand out there how the U.S. Department of Justice works, is they’re set up in the same way that we were set up in neutralization, they’re set up to intimidate and coerce people into doing things. An FBI – a well-trained FBI agent works along with an AUSA, Assistant U.S. Attorney, and they plot their course. They know that, with conspiracy laws and the anti-terrorism laws that have been passed, that they have a carte blanche to go forward in prosecutions against people who may not have had anything to do with anything, or even any knowledge. But these people are intimidated to the point, now, if you all could imagine an FBI agent coming into your home, with your family there, and telling you that, if you don’t cooperate with them, they are going to charge them in the conspiracy of the deaths of a hundred and something people. And that’s – I have no doubt that that’s what happened with Miss McVeigh. They told her that, and they told her that, “Unless you tell the truth” is how they put it, and then so she’ll go down and she’ll give a deposition of the truth, and they’ll say, “No. That’s not the truth. We’re going to charge you.” And then they’ll give a sample of what’s called a “plea agreement,” a sample plea agreement that has what they expect to be the truth, or what they think is the truth, which is actually what they want the person to say, and, unless you testify to what is in that section of the facts in the plea agreement, you’re going to be prosecuted. And she could very well have been sitting next to her brother, in this particular prosecution. And so she was scared into and intimidated into saying whatever they want her to say.

 

A: Well, we’re going to – it’ll be interesting, as this trial proceeds, to see how many people were granted, quote, “immunity,” end quote, in connection with the bombing case.

 

T: And I’m not a proponent of standing behind McVeigh in this. My personal feeling is, out of everything I’ve seen so far, but I’m open-minded, I’d like to hear what the trial has to say, but I think he’s guilty.

 

But, you know, the question is: who coopted him?

 

A: Well, the question is: who’s John Doe 2?

 

T: Yes.

 

A: John Doe 2, in my book, based on everything I’ve been able to put together – and, by the way, I do have an Oklahoma City bombing report that’s available for $20, folks – John Doe 2 is an agent provocateur who was planted on McVeigh. I have that from very, very reliable sources. Also I have, from a very reliable source, inside the government, that McVeigh was recruited out of special forces as a CIA agent, taught how to be a professional assassin, and to work on the CIA drug-operations, became disenchanted. The government knew about it, and they planted John Doe 2 on him. It’s that simple.

 

This information is available by $20. Send in $20 on the Oklahoma City bombing report to Ted Gunderson, Post Office Box 18,000-259, Las Vegas, Nevada 89109. And also, on the Franklin Cover-up book…

 

You know, I’d like to go back. You said you’d already told us everything there was to talk about as far as the FBI is concerned. But you started to get in – at the back, at the end of the first hour, you started to get into some more details about other FBI agents. We were talking about the special drop that they had, he had other agents working with him. And I asked you the question as to how many agents were there. You said you didn’t know. But you did talk to the pilot who made that run.

 

(BREAK)

 

(AUDIO GAP) 25-year black-ops undercover.

 

Chip, let’s answer that last question I gave you. And then we’re going to go to some calls. We’ve got Jerry, Tim, and Jake too, I think, from Oregon on the line. What did that pilot have to say?

 

T: The pilot said that he – it was his job to fly drugs in from Haiti, he would arrange with his people in Haiti to fly them in to here, or in to Southern Florida, and he delivered them on several occasions to several law-enforcement officers, including the FBI and DEA and Customs.

 

A: And that pilot today is in jail?

 

T: That pilot is in federal prison right now, getting ready to be moved close to my location. And I hope to get some more information from him very shortly.

 

A: And what did they throw him in jail for?

 

T: Flying those drugs.

 

A: Flying the drugs on behalf of the government and the FBI. Wow! OK…

 

T: (AUDIO GAP) Jerry, but I do know that we did supply bio and chemical weapons in to Saddam, simply because one of our primary enemies, one of our biggest enemies is Iran. We didn’t want Iran to have something that Iraq didn’t have. Iraq needed that to protect themselves, but it looks like it blew back in our face, doesn’t it?

 

A: (AUDIO GAP) Chip, did you hear at the bottom of the hour on the news where Clinton’s going to be discussing drugs while he’s in Mexico on this trip?

 

(LAUGHTER)

 

T: I’ll bet he is, half the bowl (?).

 

A: Don’t you find that amusing?

 

I – you know, I know, I know that the Mexican government, if they have the biggest rinky-dink intelligence operation in the world, they still have to know that he’s involved in the drug-operations. Do you agree with me on that?

 

T: Well, yes, and I believe so, and I believe that Mr. Abrego and – when he was convicted, made a statement that he can show that the complicity goes all the way to the White House, and, all of a sudden, he disappeared from federal prison. Where’s Abrego now, guys?

 

A: Yes. Where – was Abrego at a…?

 

T: U.S. federal prison.

 

A: U.S. federal prison, and he was – was he Mexican or what?

 

T: He was Mexican, but he had a birth-certificate out of Texas, so that gave jurisdiction for the U.S. to have him brought back into the U.S., to be tried.

 

Now, what’s interesting is, he got several terms of life-imprisonment, and there are only a few places that he’d be put in federal prison, with that many terms of life, and he’s not in the system right now. Where is he?

 

A: Wow! Do you think he’s alive? I doubt it.

 

T: Who knows?

 

A: Yes, who knows, is right.

 

OK, we have George from Colorado on the line.

 

(AUDIO GAP)

 

T: George, the answer is, yes, I did know about Michael Moholi (sp?), have several documents with Mr. Moholi’s name on them. So, yes.

 

A: Do you want to talk about Michael Moholi, tell us who he is?

 

T: I haven’t met Mr. Moholi personally, and until I’ve done my background check on it, but I’ve recently come into – received access to these documents, and I want to look into them, Ted.

 

A: OK. Good, we’ll get them on a later show, then.

 

How about Dorothy from Wyoming? Hi, Dorothy.

 

T: Ted, I’m going to talk about something real sensitive, how’s that?

 

(CROSS-TALK)

 

A: Go ahead.

 

T: Pogue (sp?) writes discussion about the oil-rigs that Bush would use to bring drugs to,…

 

A: Right.

 

T: One of them was called the Rowan (sp?) in the Gulf of Balboa, off of Panama. One of the ship’s pilots, who is – who has made a statement for me, a deposition, would routinely deliver from Louisiana and from Texas. On two particular occasions, ships to those – to that particular platform, supplied by, of all people, the Hunt brothers.

 

A: Oh my! Out of Dallas, Texas.

 

T: That’s correct.

 

Good buddies of King George.

 

A: Yes. You know, also, I picked up information – now, this is second-hand, folks, I don’t have any personal knowledge of this, but through my intelligence circles – that of the 11 supertankers that are coming in to the Houston area on a daily basis, bringing 15 million barrels of oil from the Middle East, five of them are Zapata Oil, which is owned by George Bush, and, as a matter of fact, this information came from a CIA agent, Chip,…

 

T: Yes.

 

A: … that the drugs are being – that some of the drugs are coming in on those Zapata Oil supertankers.

 

Have you heard anything like that?

 

T: Well, you know, I don’t find that real credible, and the reason I don’t is, Zapata Oil was sold in the 70’s, and Bush no longer has control, or anything to do with Zapata.

 

Another thing, he used a company called “Petroleum Transport Corporation.”

 

(BREAK)

 

A: … there’s, so you can enlighten some of these folks out there.

 

T: I don’t think the government…

 

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Here is the link to the first installment:

 

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a382cd5c874af.htm

 

After the transcripted portion posted at the above site, there are postings by those who wish to comment. Towards the end of each set of postings, there is a posting that has the link to the next installment. So starting with the first one, a person can connect easily with the following installment(or go back to an earlier one) by using the links provided.