Story of My First ORMUS Experiences

Back in the mid-nineteen seventies, I met a gentleman named Jim. Jim was a repair technician in an electronics store in a town about 40 miles from where I live in Baker City. I heard that Jim was interested in speakers and hi-fi so I went and visited him. We talked about building subwoofers and he gave me some ideas and I built a subwoofer that I still have it in my house to this day.

Jim was very clearly a genius; I mean he was brilliant. When he was in a room sparks flew. Brilliant.

After about a decade he moved closer to Baker City where I was living.

At that point Jim was working on some medical technologies using a pulse magnetic field to facilitate the healing of bones and soft tissues. In connection with that he was going to a lot of medical trade shows.

At one of these trade shows he noticed they were using really nasty chemicals to sterilize medical instruments. He said, "well hey, I think I can make an ozone generator that will sterilize these medical instruments a whole lot better than what you're using; cheaper and quicker and easier and with less toxic residue". So he went home and proceeded to build an ozone generator. As Jim predicted it worked really well. It worked so well, in fact, that we started thinking of other things we could do with it.

Jim and some of the parts of his ozone generator

Prototype brochure for ozone sterilizer

I started working with Jim in the prototyping phase of the development of his ozone generator. I was machining prototypes of the part where the ozone was made. This part was called the "flat plate".

Flat plate with audio cassette for size comparison

At that time, where I lived in Eastern Oregon, we had a couple of toxic waste disposal companies that wanted to come in and incinerate toxic waste in our county. I was working with a group of citizens who were trying to stop these companies from coming in and burning PCB transformers and toxic waste in the local cement plant.

In conjunction with this I said "Jim, why don't you start trying your ozone generators on PCB oil. I betcha it would do just about as good a job as the incineration." So he tested it and he bubbled the ozone through this PCB oil at Eastern Oregon University in La Grande, a few miles to the north. Sure enough it worked even better than incineration. In fact he bubbled it through the oil and got this little disc of plastic and right above it a whole bunch of USP grade mineral oil, nothing toxic, literally the yuppie dream, making Frisbees and baby oil out of toxic waste, it was great.

Another problem we had in Eastern Oregon was with mining waste. A lot of people were doing mining and they were using cyanide heap leach mining. The cyanide would pollute the streams or birds would land in it and all kinds of nasty stuff would happen. So we said, "why can't we just clean up the mine waste with ozone and solve this problem?"

Jim decided to look into this and decided to take his ozone generator to be tested by the U.S. Bureau of Mines up in Colorado. When he contacted them they said that they didn't believe that ozone was going to work very well because other people that had tried it for destroying mine waste had had really poor results.

So he took this two-pound per day ozone generator up to Colorado in his little burgundy-colored 1986 Oldsmobile Omega. When he got there they came out with a forklift expecting to move an ozone generator the size of a refrigerator that weighed a ton. When he got out of the car with this thing the size of a small suitcase they asked, "where's the ozone generator", he answered "I'm carrying it." They just didn't believe him at all. They said, "people come up here with these refrigerator size ozone generators and they can't make them work for this; how do you think you're going to clean up this waste water with this little ozone generator that you can carry by yourself?

So, Jim took the ozone generator and ozoned some of the nastiest mine waste they could find. It turns out that they really didn't want him to succeed because the guy that was running the program had an actual patent on some other ways of treating mine waste. They weren't really that interested in him succeeding.

He bubbled the ozone through this bucket of "waste-water" and within a few minutes was done. They tested it and it met federal drinking water quality standards on all but two toxic metals. He adjusted the pH and it met federal drinking water quality standards on those as well. It oxidized and dropped out all of the toxic metals.

Ozone is kind of like that, it will oxidize things to their highest oxidation potential. Things are toxic because they react, right? But if it's all reacted out, then it's not so toxic. That was the whole key, making it non-toxic by reacting it out just as far as you can react it out. So that was pretty impressive.

Jim decided to try it out on an actual operating mine. What he did was he set up this system where we've got an oxygen tank feeding into an ozone generator which generates the ozone that is bubbled into the contact tank full of toxic mine waste water. Out of this tank we've got a long piece of a pipe with a coupler and another long piece of pipe to an inverted sprinkler above a large column filled with charcoal briquettes. Beneath the column is a stock tank, which is grounded with a ground wire going to a ground rod that has been driven into the ground.

Mine waste treatment setup

Early on they figured out that when they ran this process they were getting a lot of extra electricity, a lot of extra electricity! And they kept burning these ground wires out until finally they got one the size of a finger. I mean a LOT of electricity was being generated by this system and they couldn't figure out where it was coming from.

Jim said "it's well, it's the charcoal briquettes, we've got a carbon air cell and carbon mixed with the oxygen from the ozone, that's a carbon air cell." It still seems to me like it was a whole lot more than that.

Also, another strange thing was happening. Ok, this was toxic water. It had lead and arsenic in it as well as the precious metals, ozone, organics and other stuff like that. When they were dripping it over these charcoal briquettes they found that the charcoal briquettes were getting gold fibers growing inside the charcoal, not on the outside, inside! These gold fibers would grow inside the charcoal. It was really strange. Why did they grow inside; how did they get in there? It just didn't make any sense.

They also got what Jim called "the snot"; a really mucousy sort of material. It would accumulate in the collection tank. If you dried this stuff out in the sunshine it would disappear in a flash of light and if you dried it out in the dark and put your hand under it, it would float away. If you put your hand over it, it would go down. Jim had a real hard time figuring out any way to contain it or collect it because once you dried it out you couldn't touch it, you couldn't get anywhere near it. It would retreat from everything that you tried to do to get it. This was weird; it was like twilight zone -- strange stuff. Here is how he described this experience when a friend and I interviewed him in 1996:

Jim: When it evaporated and dried it turned into fly ash.

Barry: Why do you call it fly ash?

Jim: Because when you'd reach for it, it would fly away.

Barry: What do you mean by that?

Jim: When you reach for it, it moved away. That's it.

Barry: Where did it move?

Jim: Anyplace it had to. Up the side of a jar, out of a pan. Unless it was wet you couldn't handle it.

He somehow managed to figure out a way to capture the "fly ash" in a bottle. I think he probably dried it in the bottle and then put a cap on it. He had a bottle of this sitting in a window in a friend's garage for years and years and anytime you'd put your hand anywhere near it this stuff would float up in the bottle and come down as you took your hand away.

Jim: We had fly ash, as we called it, in a jar. White . . .

Barry: Powder?

Jim: Well, yea, it was kind of a flake. Little flakes that came off of wedges between the acrylic in the carbon air cell. We had some of those in a jar and you would reach for it and they would move to the other side of the jar and stuff. Especially in a garage wall lined with tools. You know iron tools hanging everywhere. It was pretty alive.

Barry: What do you mean by pretty alive?

Jim: It moved a lot. By itself.

So we've got several unusual things happening. Now these unusual things are clues to the nature of this stuff and how it works, they're really profound clues that we'll come back to later on.

As I mentioned earlier ozone can be used for destroying PCBs, which are very persistent and tough to destroy. Since ozone is so reactive it requires the selection of special materials in any system where it will be used. Certain materials, like neoprene for example, are easily destroyed by ozone. Neoprene is commonly used in o-rings and seals. The coupler illustrated in the top center of the picture above has an o-ring in it.

Over time this neoprene o-ring got etched by the ozone and gradually degenerated until one day it sprang a leak. When Jim saw this leak he grabbed the coupler with both hands to tighten it back up.

Now, remember all the electricity, the lead and the arsenic and everything else. As soon as Jim grabbed the fitting to tighten it he got shocked and felt like he'd been poisoned. He fell to the ground vomited, and he just felt awful. He saw color, he tasted metal, he saw lights and got sick. Here are more comments from the interview with Jim:

It was a dull electrical shock, but often, like tscht … tscht .. tscht. But not all that gnarly. Little ones, dull. Then I started seeing flashes and I tasted metal and the next thing I know I let go cause I knew something was wrong with this and when I did by that time I was seeing a good solid blue. I let go and that's when I noticed my hands were bleeding. And I continued to get shocks for the first couple of steps and I felt overwhelmed to throw up…

When he opened his hands, fibers of gold came out the backs of his hands. Remember the fibers inside the charcoal briquettes, the fibers coming out the backs of his hands were very similar. Here is how he described this in the interview:

[They were] like little dinky wires like the kind we see in the charcoal. Those little thin wires it was just like that. Like thin little razor blade pieces coming out. I can remember a couple of them were way long like running up next to my tendons in my finger. I could feel it cutting me pulling it out. It was weird.

He couldn't figure out how that gold got into his hands. He just had gotten his hands in some dirty water! How did the gold get into his hands? This was really strange.

When Jim would touch anything, for the first week or so, a spark would fly between his finger and whatever it was he was touching and as soon as he touched it he would leave a gold fingerprint. We were calling him gold-finger for a while because he had the Midas touch. Jim said:

It took about twenty or thirty days before it really hurt me bad. But I still had the background hallucinations and I still, definitely, had the Midas touch for a number of days; if not a week…I left gold fingerprints in briquettes for a long time.

I couldn't stay awake and there was static electricity popping off of me all the time…

I gave people metal slivers if I shook their hands…

The first night after he got what he called "nuked" by getting his hands in this water, one of the miners named Tracy, drove him home because he couldn't drive. All the way home this guy kept looking at him strangely and finally Jim asked, "what's going on," Tracy replied "you're glowing in the dark." This was an Eastern Oregon miner, not a psychic. His aura must have been way strong for this guy to be seeing it. Probably a camera would have caught it too. My guess is that it was a very strong visible glow. Here are Jim's comments:

Barry: Under what circumstances did you glow in the dark?

Jim: The first time I heard about it was going into town after I had been nuked. I think I had a visible aura. Actually fairly bright considering Tracy's not one to ever mention anything like that. He's a real . . . you know, I don't believe I'm seeing this so I'm not going to mention it. Unless it is so bright that you can't ignore it. When he brought it to my attention I took it as being fairly factual. I was told that for three days or more after I got nuked.

This same glow permeated his vision; he couldn't see at night and for a while he couldn't even see well during the day because of all the light that his eyes or his mind or something was generating. (After a couple of years he could see in the dark much better than anybody else I've ever known.)

Another thing happened with the mining setup, which is another clue about the nature of these materials. They had a folded up, smaller version of the treatment setup that they would run inside a garage in a controlled closed loop with various samples of the mine waste water that they'd bring into town for this purpose.

They did all this in Tracy's garage.

Tracy's garage

They'd put the whole thing in one of these great big old stock tanks. These galvanized steel stock tanks have rolled edges on the bottom so the rolled edges hit the ground but the bottom of the stock tank isn't on the ground because you don't want the bottom of the stock tank to get wet and rust out.

Galvanized stock tank

So, they had one of those and they had the whole thing with the water in the stock tank and were re-circulating it. They ran it for a couple of hours and then they quit because it was late and the wanted to play some foosball.

So they emptied the stock tank out and put everything away. But when they lifted the stock tank up there was this puddle of water in the center of the floor and they said, "how did that get there?" There were no leaks in the tank. It was a brand new tank and the water was right under the center of the tank with no water around the edges like one would expect if water had slopped over the edge of the tank. Here is Jim's description of this from the interview:

We were doing samples from various locations of eastern Oregon and processing it in Tracy's garage. Our batch tank…was actually a horse watering basin, I think, with this PVC column with charcoal in it, then sprinkling it over this carbon air cell that was forced air at the top and then blowing the air down through the carbon.

How did the puddle of water get there? They couldn't figure out how it could possibly have gotten into that space down below the center of the tank. Here are Jim's thoughts on this:

I think we volatilized it and it came back underneath it. I think that's what's continually happening in every one of these cases. Just like the fly ash we noticed was accumulating under the carbon air cell. A pan, but inside the tank, but not with the carbon. And I do recall that . . . See this column stood right up in the middle of the tank. It was all one little unit that we built. And so in thirty words or less I believe it accumulated underneath the barrel for much the same reason.

But, they weren't going to think about it much because they wanted to play foosball. So they got the foosball table and they were standing there playing and somebody notices and says, "hey Jim that puddle's moving toward you." Here is more of the interview:

Jim: In the course of cleaning up we noticed that we had a spot of water in the garage on the floor that would follow people around. I mean, whoever was closest to it, it would sit there and creep towards them.

DM: Like, inches?

Jim: Like, feet. Like going for you.

This is kind of scary. So they move around and whoever happened to be closest to the puddle it would move toward them. According to Jim:

it looked like water in all outward appearances. It didn't look muddy, but the stuff would literally, . . . We were playing with it cause it was by a foosball table. We played a couple games of foosball afterwards and we noticed that this thing had shifted like six or eight feet towards us.

Now these guys are Eastern Oregon miners with their own sense of humor and they said, "well let's get Tracy's wife out here and see what she does." Jim said:

And so just for grins we had his old lady sit in a chair on the other side of the puddle towards the door, but much, much closer to it; like two feet away. And the thing moved like a foot closer to her in the course of time taken to play a game of foosball.

It is interesting that the first thing that these fellows might think of to do when there's some amazing new scientific effect is to figure out some way to scare a woman with it. So, they get Tracy's wife out there and here comes the puddle and she panics and runs screaming from the room and they have a good laugh.

This is one of the most amazing scientific discoveries I've ever heard of, a puddle of water that moves toward to nearest living thing! The first thing they do is figure out a way to scare a woman with it. That just boggles the mind.

So, from then on, after Jim got this stuff in his hands, whenever he'd wash his hands he would shake them off and get puddles of water on the countertop. The next person who would come into the bathroom after Jim would have these puddles of water come after them from the countertop.

All kinds of strange things were happening with this stuff. Jim, from his exposure -- from getting his hands in this stuff -- got sicker and sicker and finally he got so sick he went to the doctor. The doctor tested him and said, "Well, you've got lead and arsenic poisoning. You've got four times the lethal levels of lead and arsenic. Get your affairs in order, you've got two weeks to live," (because doctors often rely on the power of suggestion). So, Jim believed him because he was a doctor. Jim went home, moved back to his parents' house and was getting his affairs in order because he felt like he had two weeks to live.

Barry: Were you diagnosed by more than one doctor as having lead poisoning?

Jim: They all . . . the first one in Salt Lake, they kinda went "I have no idea how to deal with this but your lead levels are multiple times lead, arsenic TLV [Threshold Limit Values]".

His liver was failing, his kidneys were failing. Then something started kicking in and he started getting a little better; but he was sleeping 22 or 23 hours a day. He was sick but he was no longer sick enough to die. He was sleeping and he wasn't particularly miserable; he just couldn't do anything.

This went on for about 18 months and during that time Jim had a lot of other interesting and informative experiences. As you read these stories notice that they contain many clues about the nature of these materials. Jim is a very bright man and he also learned a lot from these clues about the nature of these materials. I'll discuss more about the nature of these materials later in the context of these clues, but first here are some more stores.

Jim experienced a lot of electrical effects following his exposure to the ozonated mine wastewater. Whenever Jim would take a shower it would be like electrical sparks hitting his skin, every drop would deliver an electric shock to him and it wasn't just a little electric shock, it was literally almost audible shocks. Here are some more quotes from our interview with Jim:

DM: So, did this just happen once or twice or continually like day after day did you get this effect where . . . ?

Jim: I had that effect for five months afterwards.

DM: My God!

Jim: Yea, I mean it was real bad. In fact, I could generate a huge amount of static electricity by taking an article of clothing that I wore and have right near but not in contact with the shower head stream and it would charge the droplets to the point where they were making [neon] just tscht, tscht, tscht, tscht.

Whenever he would pee, electrical sparks would jump between his toes and the bolts on the bottom of the toilet, with the obvious return flow (which was not pleasant either). Whenever he was taking a shower he would notice that windows and doors would blow open and shut, like winds (he called them ionic winds) would happen in the room, blowing things around.

The ionic wind is what I called it for lack of a better word. Cause primarily it was something that was first noted by K and Tracy at their house in that they had a shower door that was real funky and a bathroom door that didn't latch very well. And when he'd shower off after working with this gold stuff, literally the wind would open up the bathroom door. Like blow it open type stuff. There was a great deal of air movement to it. Especially like shocks when you washed your hair or whatever.

Jim was literally generating his own weather in the bathroom. LIGHTNING! WIND!

From these electrical experiences Jim concluded that the substance he got in his hands was some sort of electric generator so he fabricated a devise to measure the electric fields:

Jim: It was highly charged. I built a little FET charge meter in my last days so I could see the polymer stuff flowing around because it would have enough of a charge that it would effect an FET meter. Like dead deflection.

DM: Field Effect Transistor?

Jim: Yea. It's like what you use to measure static electricity by its field. Same type thing, exactly. I just built a dollar ninety-eight one with stuff from Wacky Willie's and called it good. Never calibrated it or anything. But it was very . . .

When whatever he was wearing would get saturated with this oily stuff that he called "the snot", his shirt, his sweaters, he'd wear them once and then when he gave them to his mother to wash, she'd handle them and she'd hallucinate, it was like, "No, I won't touch your sweaters". So he just started throwing them away. He'd go get a sweater at Goodwill and then throw it away when he was done with it, wear it for a couple of days then throw it away because it would get saturated with this oily stuff. Jim described this oily stuff in our interview:

I could smell this stuff. To me it smelled like fabric softener, my sweat. In fact the smell of fabric softener used on clothing I wear today makes me sick to my stomach because of it. My clothes would make people sick to handle them.

They all, unanimously, said that it was an oily substance that clung to their skin and they couldn't wash off. Some of them reported tasting things through their skin while this stuff was on it. And very lethargic for days after the exposure. Very much so knocked out like I was.

Another time he was living in the apartment of a lawyer while she was out of town. She had been commissioned to go up as part of the legal team on the Exxon Valdez oil spill; this was around 1990 or 1991. He was using her apartment while she was gone. She had this picture frame that was gold plated or gold leafed and one day he brushed against the picture frame with his sweater and got some of the oil on the picture frame and it dissolved the gold on the picture frame! Jim said:

I was still kinda on my own in that apartment that I nuked from my presence. But it really bothered me because I could taste the stuff that it would pick up. It's almost like the polymer stuff. You know how you described how it ran across the picture frames and removed the gold plating down to the base metal just where it ran across. You could see it because it leaves a clean spot on the wall. And like she smoked and stuff so all this stuff it picked up I could taste directly [when] I'd get in contact with it.

Now, if you're familiar with gold and the properties of gold at all, gold is a very, very difficult thing to dissolve. The ancient alchemists developed a special combination of chemicals called aqua regia which is hydrochloric acid and nitric acid to dissolve gold. Aqua regia means "the royal water", that was what the alchemists called it because it was the only thing they knew of that could dissolve gold. Except, here's Jim and his sweat is dissolving gold. This was some pretty incredible sweat.

Jim had a number of experiences with his car during this time. He put some of the snotty material in a little wire-wound resistor, which is a resistor with a hole through the middle of it and when he put electricity through the resister to dry out the sample the whole thing exploded. After the explosion there was gold INSIDE the paint on the car. One whole side of it had this gold flake paint job with the gold visible through the paint. Jim said:

I was going to dry it. It stayed in there just fine until it got dry and then it went poof, and a big flash and that's how I got the first metal flake paint job. We noticed profound effects physiologically after that flash of material.

You remember the song, "Diamonds on the Soles of Her Shoes"? Well, Jim had gold in the engine oil of his car!

Several times when he was working with this snotty material and he got it out into the sunshine it would disappear in a flash of light.

Barry: Did you ever see a flash in sunlight? You thought you caught it out of the corner of your eye?

Jim: Repeatedly.

Barry: And it was gone at that point?

Jim: Yep, nothing left, nothing, just a flash and unlike David's description, I remember a distinct poof. It did make sound that I can recall.

Everywhere where there was any carbon, like in the engine oil on the dirty engine, got gold flakes in it. He washed the engine and recovered the gold and sold it.

When he would ride around in the car, his windows would fog up with the "oil" from his sweat, it would show up right next to him in this car. It was a real oily, greasy, sort of stuff and was kind of hard to get off the windows.

I could ride in a brand new car one time and two days later I would see it going down the road and the side where I was on and right where I was sitting the glass would be fogged from condensate drops forming on the glass when the rest of the windows were clear.

Everybody goes "well big deal it's fog" and I said yeah, go ahead and turn on the defroster. Cause once it started forming . . . even my Camero had some of it that would form; that clear gelatinous material right under the vent, right out of the output vents of the heater where it meets the windshield. And I would have that stuff literally lined up across it. You can't hardly wipe it off. It's like having Armor All on your windshield, only it doesn't stay fog free. It makes it fog up.

Whoever would ride in the seat next to him or in his car seat after he'd been in it they'd get little slivers of gold in their butt from just sitting there. Where were these slivers coming from? How was this happening? It was just too weird.

[DD] got metal slivers sitting in the passenger seat, where I got to ride to Bend in, in my car. That's when we decided to put it in the poly bag because every time I drove it I would start feeling sick.

Finally he was having so much trouble with his car that he had to get rid of it, it was not drivable. It was essentially totaled. His lawyer, who he was staying with at the time, was also his business partner. His lawyer said, "well, we're going to have to just give this back to GM because it is clearly totaled and we'll see if we can get some money out of it." They called GM and they said "we've got an Oldsmobile Omega, it's been totaled and we want to turn it in for the insurance." They came and took a look at it and they said "this car looks perfectly useable" and it did, in fact it looked actually better than new because it had this gold-flake paint job.

Jim said, "have them send somebody out here and drive it." So they sent somebody out there and this guy got in the car and drove it about 2 blocks and turned it off and jumped out and ran from it. He was hallucinating, or fibers of gold were getting him, or who knows what, something scared that guy so much being in that car that he said, "yeah, it's totaled!" They got a huge plastic bag and they pulled the car onto a trailer into this plastic bag and then they took it and hauled it to a landfill, intact. That car is somewhere sitting in some landfill buried because it was so scary they didn't want to have anything to do with it.

I was told they put it in a poly bag in a landfill, because they put in charcoal canisters and little air pumps that pulled a sixty second sample off the interior of the car and they put it in a bag and sent it off to a test lab and they came back and said "what the hell is it?" At that point it was pretty much conclusive that nobody had a clue what it was...

Here we've got a whole bunch of clues: the charcoal briquettes with the gold growing on the inside of them; his hands (the gold must have grown along his tendons or something in there, because when he opened his hands the gold fibers came out of the back, some of them were an inch long; and the gold which formed inside the paint and in the oily engine dirt.

This went on for about 18 months during which time he was pretty sick and miserable.

I slept a lot and, how would you say in Englis, this polymer stuff was driving me batty. It was a huge irritant to me. I mean there was times at night there would be so much static electricity when I would lie in bed and stuff, I couldn't sleep. I'd just lay there and tscht, tscht, tscht, tscht, tscht, tscht, there would be sparks going and all that other stuff. This was before I actually went to [my partner's] house to convalesce.

His partner's wife was a medical doctor; an oncologist. She'd been working on a process to deliver lots of heat energy to tumors in a focused field. She and her colleagues had just figured out a way to do this after several years of research. They had successful tests and they had gotten a patent on the method.

They were having a party to celebrate the completion of this project. Jim, who was usually upstairs sleeping, stumbled downstairs in his pajamas and was at the party for a while. While he was at the party they asked Jim how he would solve the problem that they had just solved. He answered them and they were just aghast because that was exactly what they had done only they had spent years figuring out how to do it. Jim spends two minutes in a sleepy stupor and tells them exactly how to do it. Here is this story in Jim's words:

What I can tell you that they had a bunch of the doctors over to the … house after their big success on their cancer chemo-therapy system that uses an old type diathermy machine with a coil that is laid on the surface that heats in at a certain distance. In order to keep the chemo-therapy more active when it's hot. And so they wanted to make it hot on the tumor so it would be more active there for a lower dose.

But she thought she'd make a clown of me while I was out so she said "so you know what this celebration is about don't ya?" And I said "naw". She goes "well, you're Mr. Engineer so how would you do a system to heat a tumor and not the adjacent tissues?" And I said, "it's simple, I'd use a variable pitch helix coil and attach it to an RF source" and turned around and walked away. And she said "you fucking bastard" because it took them a year and a half to get them that answer.

He could go through a deck of cards and guess every card. If you had an alcoholic beverage he could move his finger above it and stir the beverage but yellow fibers would come grow out of his fingertips while he was doing it. He could only hold a soft drink, like Diet Pepsi or Diet Coke for a few minutes before it would coagulate and separate into two separate components. He said:

And so they had this big party and she had all these doctors around and said "hey Jim come here". And I'd go over there and they'd have whisky and water in a drink and I could just put my finger over the top of it and go like this and stir and these fibers would start coming out from under my fingernails and stuff. But the drink would start swirling at the same time and the color would leave. And it would leave this clear oil on top of the water where the booze was. And they would all go whoa. And we were getting static sparks and stuff while I was doing all this.

He also had previous experiences with the gold-colored but non-metallic fibers that grew out from under his fingers while he was working on the mine site before he was "nuked". Here is his story about this:

[T]he fibers grew out of my eyes, my toenails, underneath my fingernails, out of my nose, up my butt, I mean you name it.

Almost every time, even before I got nuked, when I was working the material. Even at the laboratory scale. We both, Tracy and myself, had the effects of these fibers that would grow out from under our fingernails when we would go to grab another fuel cell's worth of charcoal or something.

When you went to reach for it, it would give you trouble. Also, over baking soda and water in a pan it would do that. You know, if you held your hand over the baking soda and water, your fingernails and fingers would ache and you would see these fibers growing from out from under the fingernails.

About 16 or 17 months after his problems started I was still trying to work with Jim. I was still trying to get him to sell these ozone generators because they were great; they were the only ozone generators that had ever passed FDA for sterilization, they were the only ozone generators that had ever done what they did with the mine waste material. The ozone was just incredible, very high-energy ozone that would do all kinds of unique and unusual things.

We think it was probably O₆, in other words, ozone is O₃, that's 3 oxygen atoms in a triangle, O₆ would be 6 atoms in a six-sided hexagonal structure.

I was trying to get him to demonstrate one of his ozone generators because we had a really good customer lined up. Finally, we got them to fly in from back east and meet with Jim for a demonstration of his equipment.

The next day after they were supposed to meet with Jim, these people called me and said, "Jim didn't show. What's going on?" I called Jim and talked with the lawyer fellow he was staying with. He said, "Jim fell asleep and we couldn't wake him up." So this was the clue that finally lead me to realize that something serious had happened to Jim. I started asking myself what's going on here, why is he sleeping all the time. Every time I'd call they'd say, "oh he's taking a nap."

Sometimes lawyers don't like to make it easy to get information. Jim's lawyer (who he was staying with at the time) was real tight-lipped about saying anything about Jim's condition. I finally caught Jim with a phone call and he said, "Oh yeah, I've been sleeping 22 or 23 hours a day and when I'm asleep you can't wake me up, I got lead and arsenic poisoning and the doctors gave me two weeks to live," and so on. (Although he didn't say it that coherently, I couldn't get more than 2 or 3 coherent words out of him at a time.) I decided that something had to be done to help get Jim back.

My mom had a health food store in Baker City at the time. I went down to the store and looked up all of the things I could find on heavy metal poisoning, lead and arsenic and so on. I found this little pamphlet by Kurt W. Donsbach titled "Hydrogen Peroxide" which described how to use peroxide to help the body to eliminate lead and arsenic; to chelate them out.

So I bought the book and some of the 35% hydrogen peroxide recommended in the book and went to meet Jim in Portland, which is 300 miles west of Baker City.

I was doing forest activist work at the time, working with a small organization in Eastern Oregon and we were trying to protect some National Forests from logging. I had a conference in Portland, so in the midst of this conference I took some time off and set up a meeting with Jim and his lawyer at a restaurant. I gave Jim the book and I said, "here's something you ought to try."

Shortly before I did this Jim had been to another doctor and this doctor said, "You've got two times the lethal levels of lead and arsenic in your system. Get your affairs in order, you've got two weeks to live." (Remember, doctors like to talk like that.) In 18 months he'd gone from four times the lethal level to two times the lethal level so he'd been making some progress and he hadn't died in two weeks the first time so this time he didn't believe the doctors. He knew he was getting better but he wasn't getting better very fast so he said, "Well, ok, I'll give it a try." Here are his comments on this from the taped interview:

It's like a [heavy metal] has a TLV level where you are toxic and, you know, pound for pound are going to eat it. Well I was at, on lead, three or four times TLV initially. I was still twice the level on lead eighteen months later. Which is, I guess, the standard decay curve, which I didn't know at the time.

He took it home and drank just a couple of drops in a glass of water at first. He got really, really sick to his stomach and vomited but the next day he felt better so he did it again. Every day he'd get sick but the next day he'd be better. Here he describes some of the changes after he started with the peroxide:

Barry: So when we finally talked you into trying the peroxide, how did that work for you and what happened with that?

Jim: I got rid of the background hallucination; that blue, bluish-purple, blue light, like in one or two doses. It made me so sick the first time I ate it that I felt like I was going to die. Very, very nauseous, disoriented etcetera, etcetera. My urine was literally a dark, dark, dark, dark, dark, dark brown; reddish. More red than . . . but I did not feel well.

I still saw color until I started taking hydrogen peroxide and it all quit like that. About three doses of hydrogen peroxide and I quit seeing color and I quit hearing audio hallucinations.

After a few weeks of the peroxide he was feeling good enough that he decided to go back and get another check up. This time the doctor said "there's nothing wrong with you. No lead and arsenic. Normal levels. You're fine. No problem. What where we concerned about?" In the interview Jim said:

Then I took the hydrogen peroxide. In two weeks it went from twice TLV to very, very low levels.

Something kept him alive during these 18 months. What was it? That was the question at the time. I didn't know what it was. He didn't know what it was. No one seemed to know. It was mysterious. It was scary because something (probably the lead and arsenic) was trying to kill him too. He was getting sicker and sicker and then he started to get well for mysterious reasons that no one could understand.

During the period of time when he was sleeping all the time he was practically incoherent, you couldn't talk to him. He was somewhere else. He would say "I don't know where I was but I was not here."

This was the most incredible story I had ever heard in my life. Jim told it to me after he took the peroxide. I witnessed some of the things myself before he got "nuked". I saw the fingerprints and fibers from the back of his hands, but he told me most of the story somewhat later. It struck me that this stuff was the miracle stuff we were looking for. The stuff that would do anything. Levitation! This stuff floated away! Free energy! Electricity from the carbon air cell, the electricity Jim was generating in his body, his toes and the bolts of the toilet! This was incredible stuff! Something kept him alive when he should have been dead, that was another incredible thing. Plus, the whole thing about getting more gold out of the charcoal briquettes and the scrubbing system than they were getting out of the mine in the first place. All of it was pretty remarkable.

After he told me the whole story I would say, "Jim, let's look into this." He would say, "No, I don't want to have anything to do with it. It's awful. It's evil." Well, what could I do?

About a year or two later, I was in Portland visiting my brother and I contacted Jim. By this time Jim had set up another company there to make the ozone generators and finally get them into production. (Jim has been about a month away from production on the ozone generators since about 1986. Anytime you ask him it's "oh, it's about a month away.")

There was this show that my brother and I wanted to go to at the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry in Portland. They were having this show on gold, its uses, values and stuff like that. I said, "Jim, why don't we go to this show?" He said, "Gold? No, I don't want to have anything to do with it. It's scary." I said, "But it's not weird gold." Jim said, "but I'm afraid I'll dissolve it." Like entering the room he'd dissolve all of the gold in the room. I said "well, that'd be interesting wouldn't it?" He said "no, I don't think so." He was remembering how the oil from his sweat dissolved the gold leaf on the picture frame into a liquid and that liquid was an oil (which is another clue). It was a clear oil.

Eventually, I talked him into going to the gold show and on the road he told us the rest of the story, all of this stuff that I have related so far. But I did not tape record that conversation. I said, "Jim, this is the most incredible thing I've ever heard of. Who would think that a guy from Baker City, Oregon would be in contact with somebody that's making these incredible discoveries? This is going blow everything wide open. This is the most incredible scientific discovery that I've ever heard of." Again Jim said, "I don't want to have anything to do with it."

For the next 3 or 4 years, every time I'd see Jim or talk with him I'd ask him for more information about this stuff. I'd say, "Well, when are you going to look into it?" He'd say, "nope, don't want to have anything to do with it." He was really scared because he associated the snotty stuff with being sick from the lead and arsenic poisoning.

Eventually, things sort of got back to normal and everything was going pretty well for Jim. He was getting the ozone generators developed and getting more testing done on them and things were going pretty well except I still couldn't get him to put his attention on figuring out what had happened with the strange materials that had changed his life so radically for those 18 months.

I finally kind of gave up on it. I had told a few other people about it, a little bit, but nobody believed me, it was too weird. Finally I got a call from an old friend that I had told Jim's story to several years ago. This friend is named Richard. Richard has a company in Portland called AyurvedaPlus (www.ayurvedaplus.com).

Richard called me up and said, "I've got this tape. You've got to hear this tape. I'm going to send you this tape."

The tape Richard sent

"Ok, Richard," I said.

I was doing forest activist work and I wasn't really very interested in Ayurveda at the time. So Richard sent me this tape and I thought, "it's probably some Ayurvedic medicine tape, I'm too busy to listen to it now" so I set it aside.

A month later Richard called and asked, "well, what did you think?"

"About what?"

"About the tape?"

"What tape? Oh, you sent me a tape, yeah, ok. I didn't listen to it Richard. I'm sorry. I'll listen to it right away."

We talked a little bit more then hung up and a week later he called me and said, "What did you think of the tape?"

"Oh, Richard, I'm so sorry. I really want to hear it; I'll listen to it tonight."

So I listened to the tape. It was this guy named David Hudson and what's this guy talking about? Oh, wow, he's talking about this gold that if you put your hand under it, it floats away, and if you put it out in the sunshine it will disappear in a flash of light. These were the things that Jim was talking about. Oh, that's pretty cool. I've got to let Jim listen to this tape.

David Hudson talked about a lot of things, which were similar to Jim's experiences, and he clearly had an understanding of this stuff and how it worked. For Jim, it was totally mysterious and very scary. I knew that if Jim could hear this tape he would be interested in working with this stuff too.

You know, the best way to get an inventor to work with something is to tell him that somebody else invented something and you don't think he could possibly do anything even close to that. That's like a red flag for an inventor. So I took the tape down to Portland with me the next time I went to another environmental conference there. I left the tape with Jim while I was at my conference and when I came back the next day I asked Jim, "what do you think of the tape?"

Jim said, "Oh, I don't have a tape player."

"Oh no", I though, "I've been through this before. I'm not going to let Jim blow this off like I did".

I said, "Jim, let's go for a ride."

I had a tape player in my pickup. So, Jim and I got in the pickup and we went riding around Portland listening to this tape about David Hudson and all of his discoveries. Jim was just sitting there nodding his head. Whoever was following us must have thought Jim looked like with one of those little doggy dolls you might see nodding it's head in the back window of a '57 Chevy. What he was hearing was totally connected and relevant to all of his experiences.

At that point, Jim was hooked on this stuff. He was convinced this was something that he could work with safely, probably, and that he could contribute to in some way or another. So he thought he might start using ozone to make this stuff.