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Bob Lazar at "The Ultimate UFO Seminar"

Transcript from Conference Held at Little A-Le-Inn, Rachel, Nevada, May 1, 1993

The following is a verbatim transcript of a question-and-answer session conducted by Bob Lazar at a UFO conference. Lazar is a physicist who claims to have worked with alien craft at a secret military base in Nevada in late 1988 and early 1989.

Transcribed from audio tape by Glenn Campbell, June 1993.

Notes on Editing: It is the aim of this transcript to record as faithfully as possible what was actually said. However, when people talk extemporaneously, their speech is usually peppered with verbal place holders, like "um," "ah," "you know," etc. Since these words convey no information and greatly interfere with reading, they have been edited out of this transcript. Likewise, partial words and aborted sentences are also edited out, unless there is some possibility that they might convey information or an emotional tone. Some of the "ands" and "buts' in run-on sentences have also been deleted and the sentence broken into logical units. Otherwise, care has been taken to record exactly what was said, word for word.

Audio tapes of this talk are available from the Area 51 Research Center. Ordering info.

The Players

• BL: Bob Lazar.
• Q: A question from a member of the audience.
• QF: A follow-up question from the same person who asked the previous one.
• HOST: Gary Schultz, the self-appointed master of ceremonies at the conference.
• AUDIENCE: An interjected remark from a member of the audience.
• [?]--indicates that the preceding word or phrase is unintelligible or ambiguous in the recording and may not be correct in the transcript. When surrounded by dots (...[?]...), this mark indicates an unintelligible passage.
• [sic]--indicates a grammatical or factual error by speaker, retained in this transcript.

The Setting

The conference takes places outdoors under an army tent, about 50 yards from the Little A-Le-Inn. The Inn, a popular gathering spot for UFO enthusiasts, is a restaurant, bar and motel in the small town of Rachel, about 150 road miles north of Las Vegas and about 25 miles north of Area 51. The tent is overflowing with some 200 UFO enthusiasts from around the country. Bob Lazar's session starts in the mid-afternoon on Sat., May 1, 1993, the second day of the conference.

Additional References

This conference was covered by the Los Angeles Times in an article, "Totally Fanatical Observers," pubished May 5 (?), 1993. This article was widely syndicated and appeared in many other newspapers in the subsequent week.

Also reported in MUFON UFO Journal, June 1993, in a 6-page article by Dennis Stacy.

Lazar also answered some questions in a private interview just prior to this talk. Transcript. A list of related references for Bob Lazar, UFOs and secret aircraft in Nevada can be found in the Area 51 Viewer's Guide, by Glenn Campbell. This is a 120-page self-published visitor's guide to the "Black Mailbox" and Nevada Highway 375, the location of many reported UFO sightings. The region lies just across the mountains from the restricted military base where Lazar claims to have worked. Ordering info.

Bob Lazar's appearance is preceded by a very long introduction by HOST, too lengthy to be reprinted here.

[Applause.]

BL: Thanks. I think Gary got carried away a little bit.

[Laughter.]

BL: I really don't have anything to say, so if anyone has any questions, that's probably the best way to do it.

Q: Could you give us any more information from the, quote, Alien Bible, the speculation stuff? Since you're the only one we know of that's has access to that information, we'd like to hear more. And having read that, could you give us a general idea of what our situation is here right now. Are we looking for any trouble from the returns ever since the incursion at the base where there was a problem? What's your general understanding?

BL: Well, as far as the alien bible, I don't know what you're really talking about. Some of the briefings that I read dealt with some of that information about us being a product of genetic modification, but that's about all that I know. The repercussions, the big story, all that, I really have no idea about.

QF: Well, I meant, you mentioned a date when they were supposed to return. Is something supposed to happen when they return?

BL: I have no idea. It was just a date, and it was a number that made no sense to me. It was a six-oh-one or three-oh-something, obviously in a different numerical system.

QF: So then other than them having created us and then the genetic upgrades, that's it as far as...?

BL: Supposedly, if that information is correct, yeah.

Q: I'm interest in a little bit more about the physics of the power generation from the development of the anti-matter to the Gravity "A" wave and the amplification and that process of the generation of that and being able to fold space.

BL: That's a pretty lengthy explanation.

QF: In other words, the relationship between the development of anti-matter and the gravitational force field.

BL: Well, it's... I can give you, I guess, a brief overview of essentially how that works. If you want an in-depth description, you can give me your address and I can send you a paper on it. Essentially, what the reactor does is provide electrical power and the base gravity wave to amplify, and it does that by interacting matter and anti-matter, essentially. The way it does that is, injecting an accelerated proton into a piece of 115. That spontaneously generates anti-hydrogen, essentially. That's reacted in a small area. It's a compressed gas, probably compressed atmospheric gas, and the anti-matter reacting with matter produces the energy, mainly heat energy, and that is converted into electrical energy by a thermionic generator that appeared to be 100% efficient, which is a difficult concept to believe anyway. Also, the reactor has two functions. That's one of them; the other function is, it provides the basic gravity wave that's amplified, and that appears at the upper sphere of the amplifier itself, and that's tapped off with a wave guide, similar to microwaves, and is amplified and focused, essentially.

QF: So how is the electrical energy related to the amplification of the gravitational "A" wave energy?

BL: The electrical energy is transmitted essentially without wires, and I related it to almost a Tesla setup. It seemed like each subcomponent on the craft was attuned to the frequency that the reactor was operating at, so essentially the amplifiers themselves received the electrical energy, like a Tesla coil transmits power to a fluorescent tube, and what was the rest of the question?

Editor's Note: Nikola Tesla (1856-1943) was the inventor of alternating current and author of many experiments concerning electricity and the occult. Much of his research is highly regarded among mainstream scientists, while some of his claims were more eccentric and remain unproven. Tesla claimed, among other things, that he had received signals from another planet and that current passing through a coil could counteract gravity.

QF: Yeah, in other words, what is the relationship between... I think you basically answered it.

BL: Yeah, that's how the amplifiers receive the power and through the wave guide to receive the basic wave. It's almost... It's very, very similar to a microwave amplifier, and for a more technical description, I can send you drawings and things along those lines, but that's basically how it works.

Q: I understand you took some 115 home with you to do some testing on your own.

BL: I obtained it, yeah.

QF: Did you document any of your testing at all?

BL: Yeah.

QF: You did.

BL: Yeah, mostly video tape and things like that.

QF: John said it was stolen from you later? Last night he said, "They stole it back," he said.

BL: Well, there's another level to that. Like I said, right now it's in private hands.

Q: Element 115, John said last night that a piece, alleged, that's about two inches in length will run the ship up to thirty years. How does that go in light years? How long would that be?

BL: Well, it really depends on the energy level. The more energy you expend, the greater the consumption of fuel, just like any modern machines, so it really all depends on the amount of energy you request out of it.

Q: What is Dr. Teller's relationship to S-4? Do you think he might be working on anti-matter weaponry?

BL: I don't know, but he was certainly... I forgot what his exact title was. He was chief consultant or something along those lines, and as far as anti-matter weaponry, I don't think anyone was involved in that. There was certainly some beam weapon work, and Teller's been involved with that. I think his last project at Livermore/Los Alamos was, I think he called it Super Excalibur, and that was essentially a nuclear bomb detonated in orbit and fiber-optic light guides that directed x-rays to incoming warheads That's his pet project, he loves that thing, so I don't think he'd jump to anti-matter weapons.

All the way in the back there.

Q: On your Sports Model that you worked on, what do you think was on Level Three, and where were the bathrooms?

[Laughter.]

BL: I don't know if anything was on Level... Well, I don't know if there were any bathrooms. On Level Three, I can only guess, and I would imagine that there was some sort of navigational equipment or their version of a computer or something along those lines, because I saw nothing else that controlled the amplifiers, the directions they pointed at.

Q: Bob, how do you foresee that mankind can develop this type of machines [sic].

BL: I really don't. I really don't, without access to certain materials, or maybe new manufacturing techniques that can produce those, but until those problems as solved, the fact that we even know how to deal with it or even duplicate it is pretty useless.

QF: How many other materials might be necessary, besides 115, that you know of, that were contained on the ship?

BL: That might be it. The rest of it might be just, essentially, polishing up manufacturing techniques, making things smaller, just general increase in technology: Getting a small accelerator running at a higher energy level. I don't know about the metallurgy aspect of the craft. I don't think any exotic metals are necessary, although they may be employed. I imagine you could make a craft out of aluminum if necessary, but what part that plays, I don't know.

Q: [?]...this comes to the saucer shape, the geometry, having to do with any resonance or anything of that nature.

BL: Not any resonance, but it's important most of the edges on the craft are rounded because a high voltage field does appear at most of the craft, except for the last upper bump. There's a little ring before that--Now, I'm only talking about one craft, so I don't know about the rest.--but there's a small ring before that, a darker black one, and that's a insulator ring, and that's the only place, above that, that upper section, that third level is where high voltage does not appear.

Q: Did any technology that came from the aliens resemble anything that we can do today? Have we advanced to any degree... that they are?

BL: Well, there are some basic things. You know, the fact that they are using a little accelerator; although it's smaller. We have things like that, if that's what you're getting at.

QF: Do you think that they're really advanced? Well, as far as controlling gravity waves...

BL: Yeah, other than the fact that the craft operates by manipulating gravity, that's about it, really.

Q: Bob, I wanted to ask you, talking about metallurgy, what you observed in terms of the structure or the skin of it, the thickness, because there were reports from Roswell and otherwhere [sic], that they were very thin type of metal, the skin, that was really undamagable and so on. What was the construction of it like?

BL: Well, I called it metal, and I really can't say that's what it was. I called it metal because I slid my hand across it, and it was cold and it was semi-lustrous.

QF: Did you notice anyplace like on an edge or something where it may have been a lot thinner than your standard metals that are used in our craft today?

BL: It's hard to... From the outside, you can't tell. When you walk in, the way the archways are inside, they're probably about four inches thick anyway, so you really can't tell how thin the skin is itself or if it's exotic...

Q: Yes, more on this Element 115 and your contention that it couldn't be made here on earth. What if you found the right bombardment speed, the right target shape and the right containment...?

BL: Well, I imagine with enough time you can make a small amount of it. My analogy is, look at how long it takes to make gold in an accelerator from bismuth or something like that.

QF: That may just be a technology that hasn't advanced far enough.

BL: Right, but the bottom line is, you have to sit there and plug in protons, and neutrons for that matter, into an existing atom, and you have to do it essentially on an individual basis, and they're not all going to catch on, I mean, some are going to...

QF: How do you think they got their first piece of it? If it was in a dead star, how... ?

BL: I think it was naturally occurring somewhere.

QF: On their planet?

BL: Just because it's stable, yeah. Probably so. That's just a guess on my part, but if that technology was harnessed quickly enough, chances are they didn't have... When they came here, our levels of technology were probably fairly new to them. They probably never even considered an internal combustion engine, or, for that matter, when they came flying into the atmosphere and saw little cigar shaped things with fire coming out the back, they probably couldn't conceive of how the thing was powered, so it just all depends how, what materials, what raw materials you have. But that's just an opinion, that that was a naturally occurring element.

Q: Are you aware of any long distance flight tests that have been done on any of the disks?

BL: As of the time that I was there, I was told that they didn't, they really didn't take them any great distances, other than right outside the...

QF: Have you heard the rumor of the pilots who were killed while trying to leave the atmosphere?

BL: No.

Q: If we had a working agreement with the aliens at one time, why didn't they give us a user's manual for these ships? Why have we had to work so hard back engineering them?

BL: I haven't the slightest idea.

QF: Any assistance at all with any of the technology, in learning it?

BL: I really don't know. It almost seems there had to been some assistance or some information found, but who knows?

QF: Your information didn't indicate that at all.

BL: No.

Q: With such tight security around there and supposedly only 500 pounds of this material, how is it somebody could get some of it out of there?

BL: The material is, that they have there is essentially raw. The material is, it has to be machined into disks. These disks have to be stacked up and then cut into a cone shape and then sliced along the long axis of it. That work is done at Los Alamos. I'm not exactly sure Los Alamos knows what they are doing. Apparently they think that they're developing... the little coins that they're working on is some new type of armor. And having worked at Los Alamos and know people around that area, that's how I obtained some of it.

Q: Can you say anything about Project Looking Glass and the relationship between gravity and time?

BL: Well, gravity and time are almost essentially the same thing, and Looking Glass dealt with using gravity essentially to distort time, and as I've said before I really know very little about that, but they were only talking about milliseconds or even less, microseconds of time distortion. They're not looking back in time to see who killed Kennedy or something along those lines.

[Laughter.]

Q: The craft that you are talking about, the scout craft, is that the one that's like the Adamski picture with the three domes underneath, and if it's not...

BL: I'm not exactly sure what the Adamski picture is.

QF: It's the saucer shape that has the...

BL: This is the one that looks like one of the Meier craft.

QF: Did you see any others than that one, or... there's nine out there supposedly?

BL: Yeah, I saw nine in total, but that's the only one I got close enough to fool around...

QF: Did you see the one with the three domes underneath that.. three balls underneath, that has a central housing underneath...?

BL: No.

QF: And the second question was, did anybody give you any indication as to who was driving or any information on that?

BL: I assume that it was humans that were piloting the craft, although it could have been remote control, but at the one test flight that I saw, on the ground they were in radio communication with someone, and I assumed it was someone in the craft. I imagine it's possible that it could have been a remote observer somewhere, but I just assume that the seats were retrofitted or they were sitting on the floor for that matter.

Q: Are you familiar with... I have a couple of aspects of the question... Are you familiar with Howard Menger's electrocraft, or Otis Carr's saucer design? How are those, how are their devices, how do they generate their gravity fields compared with what you described? And lastly, can you speculate why the commercialization of some of these crafts hasn't been possible with so many different patents applied for these kinds of design craft.

BL: Because they don't work.

Q: Are there any "G" forces encountered by the pilots inside the craft?

BL: No. None at all.

Q: From your interviews, you seem to feel that the Area 51 or the S-4 test site was kind of slipshod in how it does its research, that it really doesn't have the facilities there to actually do the research correctly. Could you comment on that. And also I'm wondering whether you could tell us about the other types of ships you saw there that you thought were alien in origin.

BL: Well, as far as the research at S-4, that was kind of slipshod, just because mainly it was being done from a military point of view. If anything, it was a weapons development program, and they were more concerned about with duplicating the technology... not really duplicating the technology, duplicating the hardware as opposed to back engineering the technology to find out how these theories actually work and what's going on with them. So they really weren't taking the scientific approach and that was causing some dissension. I don't remember the second part of the question.

QF: Just what other types of ships did you see that might have been alien in origin?

BL: I only saw them, and they varied in shape, but I was told they have the same identical power and propulsion system, and that's the extent of my knowledge on that.

QF: What about shape?

BL: They varied completely in shape.

Q: You had the military out there supposedly working with the aliens. Did you ever get any inference from them that it was a positive or a negative situation? In other words, when they were talking about the aliens or whatever, was it a positive or a negative type slant on the...?

BL: Well, they really didn't talk about the aliens. They only time I ever heard anybody mention anything about an alien, someone--and I'm just assuming that--someone called the thing a "gourd." and that was it. I heard it in the middle of a conversation, and they stopped talking when I got up to them. So, that was the thing.

Q: I'll address this question to the interior of the Sports Model. I know you have made reference to the power source in the center of the craft, and there were small seats that were low to the ground. How about consoles or displays or any kind of instrumentation.

BL: Nothing along those lines, but what I called a console... There are three seats... If you look at the bottom level, there's the three amplifiers in a triad formation. Directly above each one is something I call a console, and I think that's a secondary part to the amplifier. An analogy to that would be, that would be the actual amplifier, and the thing hanging underneath would kind of be a speaker if you are talking on audio terms.

QF: Did you see any kind of controls or lights or indicator anywhere?

BL: No.

QF: No "on" switch?

BL: Not that I could find.

Q: Did it seem like there was any place or even a need for life support of any kind on these things?

BL: Not that it was obvious to me.

Q: Two questions: How do they navigate, and how do we converse with them?

BL: I haven't the slightest idea how they navigate. You know, like I said, I think if that... whatever controls, the configuration, the amplifiers, the focusing, which is basically their navigation, is most probably on the upper level of the craft that I didn't get to look at of [sic]. And as far as the conversation between them, your guess is as good as mine.

Q: Was the local means of propulsion the same as this across-space distances? What was the local means of propulsion?

BL: The local means of propulsion is essentially them balancing on an out of phase gravity wave, and it's not as stable as you would think. When the craft took off, it wobbled to some degree. I mean, a modern day Hawker Harrier or something along those lines of vertical takeoff craft is much more stable than them in the omicron configuration, which is that mode of travel. The delta configuration is where they use the three amplifiers. Those are the only two methods I know about for moving the craft.

Q: Can one pilot the craft, as far as you know, pilot this craft, or does it take three, or do you know anything about that?

BL: I don't know.

All the way in the back in the red.

Q: Element fifteen [sic]. Was that stable? In other words, does it give off radiation or could you hold it in your hand?

BL: No, it's stable.

QF: So you could hold it right in your hand?

BL: Yeah, theoretically, elements should reach a stability around anywhere from 113 to 116, somewhere in there, and apparently that's true. And, again, they should reach a stability somewhere up around 220, some odd. But, you know, whether those elements will ever be synthesized or found naturally...

QF: For the size, it's really heavy.

BL: Yeah, it's unusually heavy.

Q: I want to know what you think of the monuments of Mars, and do you think we have bases also?

BL: Do I think we have bases? No. The monuments of Mars are interesting. That's about the most I can say. If they're suspicious, and I really don't know until there's more information. I've seen pictures of them and things along those lines, but the most recent Mars probe is taking low-altitude photographs of those, so I guess everyone will know in about a year.

Q: Are you still... You don't have any contact with Los Alamos as far as your work goes?

BL: Indirectly, yeah.

Q: What about your perception of time and length, width and height. Is it the same aboard the craft as off of it, when you went aboard compared to when you went off of it?

BL: Well, as long as you're on the craft, everything seems completely normal. Time flows at a normal rate, and... If you're off the craft and you're comparing the time of someone in the craft, someone off the craft, they'll be a definite difference there. Anything where gravity's involved, even the Shuttle astronauts, they'll come back... Just because of the difference in gravity, when they come back, they'll be a slight difference in time.

Q: Did you learn of any other well known civilian scientists who are involved in this?

BL: Ah... Yes. Not involved in this, but involved in the gravity work. And he's at Los Alamos, and we've had a little bit of contact.

QF: Can you name names?

BL: I'd rather not, just because so far, no one's bothering him, and I'm sure he wants to keep it that way.

Q: You said that the skin on the craft would become transparent? Did you say the wall inside the craft had become transparent?

BL: Only one place, yeah.

QF: So the whole craft can't become transparent?

BL: No, no, it was only one place where the seats faced and it... You know, there again, I said that's advanced technology but it's not that advanced, because we have something along the lines of that--liquid crystal--that we could make transparent and also use as a display of sorts. But this was metallic, and we haven't anything along the lines of the toughness of metal that you could drill into that can become transparent.

QF: What was the time period when the wall became transparent and you saw the symbols appear?

BL: Probably about 30 seconds or so.

Q: Yeah, two related questions. Are you aware of any instances where the inside of an alien craft is much larger than its apparent outside?

BL: No, I heard stories like that, though, but I haven't...

Q: Another thing is, the strong force which you've identified with Gravity "A". I know there's been some recent theories that propose... an eleven dimensional universe with seven of them rolled up...

BL: I'm not buying that.

QF: Does it operate on any principal related to that?

BL: My main problem with that, and Steven Hawking for that matter, is that once you start creating other dimensions, it's like an excuse. I mean, in particle physics, they do that too, when they can't figure out something, they say, well, we don't know what gravity is, well it's caused by the... graviton, yeah. They'd make up particles like that. You can do that with dimensions, too. Oh, where'd it go? It went into another dimension, yeah. It's like an excuse. The bottom line is, as everyone has said, every physicist has said the answer to everything is always simple. And there's not an eleven dimensional universe. First of all, there doesn't need to be, because all this technology works in a one dimensional, essentially a four dimensional universe, and there's no need for it.

Q: Yes. Two or three questions, please. You said in your video tape that you flew to work from Las Vegas to Groom Lake, is that right?

BL: Yeah.

QF: How did you get from Groom Lake down to Papoose Lake?

BL: In a bus.

QF: There's a facility on the other side of Groom Lake on the east side of Groom Lake. Are you familiar with that?

BL: On the east side of Groom Lake... Across the lake? No, I've never been over there.

QF: Did they ever tell you... Did you get anything with the work that was done on the west side of Groom Lake?

BL: No.

HOST: Bob, getting back to this question about, if there is any difference between being on the inside of the craft, while it's under power, versus being on the outside of the craft. Of course, you wouldn't have experienced any of that, because you were never on the craft when it was powered, right, under power?

BL: Well, by the fact that the screen became transparent and other things were operational, I can assume that it was... there was some power generated.

Q: Bob, how long were you part of the S-4 project, and how key of a person were you on the science team that was studying these vehicles?

BL: I was probably there only six months, four months, something like that. It's hard to remember. And as far as the key person, I'm sure I was the last rung on the ladder. Though, because no one has really gotten anywhere they were looking to me for fresh ideas, which I really didn't have anything because I didn't know really what was going on or where they had been, and so... It was a very disorganized group, and that's really all I can relay. I don't know how else to describe it.

QF: It was frustrating in that regard.

BL: Very frustrating.

Q: Element 115, does it have emission lines?

BL: Does it have emission lines?

QF: Spectral.

BL: Oh, I imagine it does. Every other element does, yeah.

QF: That you know of.

BL: Well, no, I haven't seen any spectrographic analysis on it, or... Well, actually, they did do... I don't know if I saw it though. I saw a neutron bombardment test and density measurements and things like that, but I'm sure that carried out that tests on it. But I wouldn't be able to identify the lines, no.

QF: You're not aware of the results?

BL: They probably showed them to me, but I can't for the life of me remember after four years.

QF: After this hurdle [?], would you expect to see it in stars?

BL: Possibly in heavier stars or in planets that surround a larger star system. In fact some people have brought up that... Some people have brought up that, that's ridiculous because all the elements that we know of are found on earth, and that's not true. I think it's technium or something along those lines is not found on earth and it's on the periodic chart.

At this point in the talk, someone outside the tent shouts, "There's something in the sky," and there is a sudden mass exodus of nearly everyone from the tent, leaving Bob almost alone at the podium. [See Los Angeles Times article mentioned at beginning.]

BL: A flying saucer will get everyone moving.

What follows is an unscheduled intermission of about 4 minutes, during which most people are still outside, binoculars, video cameras and fingers pointed toward the sky in the west. Some people think they see a balloon, other's a parachute. When the session resumes, there are now fewer people in the tent, since many remain outside for a long time.

AUDIENCE: Excuse me. Could we get everyone to take their seats please.

[Long delay.]

HOST: May we take our seats please.

Q: Are you familiar with Zechariah Sitchin's writings about the Sumerians and the...[?]...their tablets.

BL: Oh, a little bit.

Q: ...that the aliens came to mine elements here. That's his version of what their story was on their tablets. But in the south of France, there's a similar legend, and they found that people had in their history where these beings came and dug, and now go down [?] in the south of France. They looked back and looked, and it happens to fall over the natural belt of uranium is there. And I was wondering if you had anything that would lead you, from what you saw with that propulsion system, to think that the aliens may have come here at one time to do that.

BL: I don't know. I mean, no matter what... Uranium is certainly a valuable element. I don't know.

Q: Did you get to see any aliens at all?

BL: No.

Q: Back when you were talking about low-level flight, you were talking about wobble.

BL: Uh-huh.

QF: Have you ever seen the Billy Meier movies? Is it similar to that?

BL: The Billy Meier movies...

QF: How the disk was wobbling. The films of disks.

BL: I saw still... I don't think I've seen any motion.

QF: Yeah, he's got some that fly around a tree.

BL: Oh, right, I did see that. Yeah, I did see that.

QF: And there's some other hovering ones where they wobble.

BL: You know what's strange about the Billy Meier photographs, that the disks... one of the ones he took a picture of looks exactly like the one that I looked on, but... Yeah, I'm certainly not an expert in the field, but some of those look unbelievably fake, and I can't... Especially the thing with it flying around the tree. Boy, it looks like it's hanging from a string, but why would he do that if he had some authentic pictures? I don't know. I have mixed feelings about that.

Q: How do you feel about, or do you have an opinion of this conflict that allegedly happened between the grays and the Delta Force--in, what was it, '89 or whatever? Do you remember anything about that.

BL: I really don't really have an opinion. I just repeat it.

QF: Do you think it really took place?

BL: Boy, I don't know.

Q: Are there any weapons on these ships?

BL: Yeah, apparently there's one, but I wasn't involved in the project that dealt with it.

QF: And what's your next video going to cover?

BL: Well, there's really not a next video. The video that I made is being redone by another company, only because they liked it so much. There just redoing the graphics and making it a little more technical, and I'm just serving as a technical advisor on it, but... For the most part, it's 60 to 70 percent of it's the identical thing. They just wanted to do it, because these particular group of guys involved--I think the company's called Dreamquest, involved in special effects--were really involved in the UFO thing and wanted to do it with modern day stuff instead of knit stockings and things like that.

Q: ...[?]...if one of our jets approached them they would neutralize the computer system or electrical system.

BL: Well, that's certainly possible. I don't have any information on that, but just by the EMP generated by the systems on the craft, that makes perfect sense to me.

Q: I was going to ask you, what type of weapons do they have?

BL: It's some sort of directed energy weapon, and I think its a...

QF: Like a laser beam.

BL: Well, no, a particle weapon, probably a neutron...

Q: How many levels does that S-4 have do you know of? Just one, or does it go underground?

BL: There might be two, but I know there's one because obviously I was on one, but I can't actually remember if anyone, if there was any direct mention from there of there being a lower level, but I really wasn't allowed to roam freely around the whole place, so I don't know. I really don't know.

Q: Bob, could you tell us about your education. I've heard [?] a lot of different conflicting things; I'd like to hear from you.

BL: That varies widely. As far as electronic technology, my degree there is from Cal-Tech and physics is from M.I.T.

QF: Did you go to Pierce College?

BL: Yeah, I did. Where did you hear that?

QF: A friend that said something, somebody I don't even know. I just thought, it's something I want to ask, to clear my mind.

BL: Yeah, I went to Pierce and Northridge and then... I'm terrible at dates. I don't remember what date I was at Pierce, probably like in seventy-six or something I was at Pierce and then seventy-seven or eight I went to Northridge just for a short time for some classes, then I was at Cal-Tech, and then M.I.T. after that.

Q: Yeah, some critics have suggested that there is not a Department of Naval Intelligence that's shown on your W... your IRS record. I wonder if you could address that.

BL: Yeah, I've heard people say that before, but the bottom line is, if you... and I've let other people check into that... Bob Oechsler's a guy that managed to trace that down through the IRS, and if you write the ZIP code number on the bottom of it, or NC-101 or something like that, or NC-something... anyway it gets to, it gets to somewhere in the Navy. As far if there's a department there, nah, I don't know, but that's the W-2 that I got sent, so...

QF: Well, that same person was saying, though, that the ZIP code that was on there was some one that was in reserve, unused in Washington.

BL: That was unused?

QF: Yeah.

BL: Well, no, he had correspondence with someone in the Navy, through that address.

QF: I'm not talking about Bob Oechsler. I'm talking about Bill Moore.

BL: Oh, Bill Moore, I don't... I don't know, Bill Moore...

QF: I know, he's an enigma himself.

BL: Yeah, I guess he disputes everything I said. He said, well, there's two different types on here, and this and that, and I say, well, I don't know. So, that's basically what I get sent, and I've seen enough information to where that ZIP code works, and that's all the information I have. I really haven't pursued it myself.

Q: aybe you can clarify soething, why you think this is a legitimate document, because of the considerable elements of...[?]

BL: Oh, because of the amount of money. Yeah, no one would know the amount of money except me and the people that... That's all the information I've got....

Q: I have two questions. They're not related to each other, but one is, are they silent or noiseless, and, B, who signed your paychecks?

BL: As far as, are they silent or noiseless, there's a slight hiss before they take off, up to a certain altitude, and that sounds like a high voltage hiss of sorts. That's all the sounds that I've heard. I've heard lots of reports about weird flying saucer type sounds, but I've never encountered that. Who signed my paycheck? There was a signature on it, but I don't know whose it was. At the time that I cashed the paycheck, it never even concerned me, tracing anything down.

QF: Are you sure there wasn't a company name up in the corner like most paychecks?

AUDIENCE: Well, I worked for the Federal government years ago. All you get is a green Treasury check. There would be no other papers with it. From the Department of Treasury.

BL: No, this said the Department of Naval Intelligence on it.

QF: On the check.

BL: Yeah, on the check.

Q: Bob, when a craft like that comes into our atmosphere, would you expect a loud report?

BL: Well, it's solely dependent on the velocity that it enters. If you're dealing with something that manipulates gravity and doesn't have to slingshot into the earth, you could come in at a low speed, not heat up, not really encounter any...

QF: It's velocity dependent, is that so?

BL: Right. Well, yeah, if you're traveling at supersonic then you get a report. If you're not, you don't. It's pretty straightforward.

Q: When you were at S-4, to your knowledge, what was the approximate percentage of civilian versus military personnel, and in what kind of job categories.

BL: The civilian personnel were scientific in nature, and the military personnel were only security, and as far as the percentage, it was a small percentage of scientific to military personnel.

QF: Were there any secretaries?

BL: I'm sure there were offices all over the place, but when I came into the facility, I was essentially escorted right to where I work and worked there, other than the few amount of times I got to walk into the hanger, under an escort, too, and when I left, it was the same. So, like I said, there might be offices. There might be bunkers in there. There might be underground levels. There might be an alien nest in there. I have no idea.

[Laughter.]

Q: Was there a cafeteria?

BL: Excuse me.

QF: How did you eat?

BL: The only place I ever ate was at Area 51. So if there was a cafeteria there, I never got to eat in it.

Q: Did you come and go with other people?

BL: I usually came with Dennis Mariani, who was my supervisor. I wasn't on a full-time swing, essentially. I flew in, usually between four and five o'clock at night and left by eleven, so I was only there for a short time each day.

Q: Aboard the bus from Groom Lake to Papoose, how many people were on that boarding with you?

BL: Very few.

QF: More than one? More than yourself?

BL: Me and Dennis and usually--actually not usually--occasionally one other person.

QF: How about Barry?

BL: I don't think I ever saw Barry on the bus.

QF: Just two of you.

BL: Uh-huh.

Q: Is there a chance that any of the workers might defect?

BL: Barry would. That's why I spent some time trying to get a hold of him. And there was actually some time after all this hit the news and the whole thing went down, we got a call from Dennis, my supervisor, and he arranged a meeting at the Union Plaza Hotel. And when we got there, I brought three people with me, and I think he said he would be in the casino area somewhere and we went--in fact Gene Huff came with me--and we went into the area. And walking down the corridor, I recognized one of the security personnel from there, and then when I finally found Dennis, he didn't even acknowledge my presence. We couldn't get his attention, and I left. So apparently, someone had known of the conversation and sent someone down there and made themselves obvious to Dennis, or something happened, and then we left, but I think that was where Dennis really wanted to say something.

Q: I understand you used hypnotic regression to get at some of the details of your experience. If so, what is your impression of hypnotic regression as a tool?

BL: It's probably reasonable, because there were specifics... They contend that you can sit there and re-read a document as if you had... as if you were there reading it for the first time. And what I was mainly interested was in some of those schematics and drawings. And I did some of the hypnosis stuff with Layne Keck, hypnotherapist in town. And I was certainly able to redraw a lot of the schmatics and engineering drawings along those lines...

[End of tape: Side 1 (45 minutes). Brief gap.]

...I was using it as a tool for that. That seems to work. For anything else, I don't know.

Q: I have two things. One is comment, and the other is a question. First of all, when I was 12 years old, I saw a daylight flying disk which looked exactly like one of Billy Meier's photographs fifteen years later. And this...

BL: You mean earlier.

QF: No, earlier, fifteen years earlier, I saw this disk, and then Billy Meier took a photo in 1975 that was the same, exactly the same, disk that I saw. Down to the last detail, it was the same. And then you said that the Sport Model looked a lot like this same photo, in an interview with George Knapp. I thought that was really interesting, because it kind of tied it all together for me. And then... I just wanted to make that comment. And then the question I had was, what was the year of your graduation from M.I.T., and did you get a Ph.D.?

BL: No, it was a Master's degree. The year. What was the year of graduation? Probably eighty two because I think I left there...

QF: And went to Los Alamos?

BL: ...and went to Los Alamos.

Q: Can you talk about the mind control that some people have said was used on you and when you decided to leave was also erased.

BL: What mind control would that be?

QF: Someone made that comment that you might have been a victim of some sort of mind control or...

BL: That came about by, when I was first brought there, they had a doctor, or nurse actually, and a medical setup there, and right after I had signed all the release papers and when I was first time out there, I went in and they did what I perceived to be an allergen test, because they put a grid on my arm and different... pricked me with different chemicals. It was their contention that, well, boy, there's a lot of strange elements here and unusual things you'll be working on, so they were trying to see if you were going to have any adverse reaction to them. And I was given something to drink. I said it smelled like pine, which it did; that's the best way I can describe it, and a lot of people jumped on that saying, ah-hah well that's the mind control substance; When you leave work, you're going to forget everything; when you come back, you're going to remember everything. But I think that if anything, it was an anti-allergen drug, or something along those lines.

QF: How about the threats, any kind of threats being used.

BL: Yeah, there was plenty of threats. Yeah.

QF: ...like bodily harm or loss of pension, or what kind of stuff was used.

BL: Well, the loss of pension and jail time, that was part of signing the paperwork. As far as bodily harm, after they caught us the time I brought out John Lear and a couple other people up there, then they threatened me, and they really didn't get much reaction out of that, then they threatened my wife at the time, and... They really threw out everything they could, without physically attacking me.

QF: Well, that's what I was wondering. Once they knew it was really you and not Dennis or someone else or anything, why didn't they just arrest you under charges of violating the act.

BL: Well, they can't arrest me, because they'd have to admit that this is classified material, and they'd have to release it. Why didn't they... kill me? That I really don't know. Maybe that had to do with how I got the job--referencing the connection to Ed Teller--something along those lines. But, I don't know.

Q: Were there any contractor names, departments, divisions that were mentioned, or signs on the wall or anything like that referring to any companies or anything like that.

BL: No, but I know EG&G had nothing to do with it. That's the only light I can shed on that, because I had mentioned that to them once because that's where I was interviewed, at the EG&G building, and I thought that it was part of an EG&G project, and I think it was Dennis who said that we don't let those people anywhere near this place. They were just a sore thumb to them.

Q: Bob, as one way of getting this information out and at the same time to have to government stop harassing you, did you ever consider bringing them to court?

BL: On what charge?

QF: Well, threatening you and your family, harassing you and as a result of that forcing them to...

BL: With what evidence would I do that. I mean it's hard enough to prove it to the layman in general, but taking it to court, it's impossible. I mean, there's plenty of people who don't believe me anyway.

QF: So you never sat down with counsel with regard to any of this?

BL: Well, a little, well yeah, initially. And the bottom line is, the attorney said, there is absolutely nothing to go on. It's a total waste of time, and if anything it's going to be a public forum to discredit me in some manner, so why even go through with it?

Q: How about class action and ACLU and that sort of thing?

BL: But still, you need some sort of evidence that this happened. Even if I pulled out a piece of 115 and said, here. Well, what does that have to do with anything? There's nothing that... And what did they do to violate my rights that I didn't agree to at the beginning? So they really had their bases covered.

Q: It's pretty dirty what they did to you in Las Vegas there in 1990, in the summer. That was pretty dirty.

BL: What was that?

QF: They took you to court.

BL: Well, yeah, that was my own fault.

QF: So you've been through your counseling.

BL: Yeah.

Q: How would someone get a piece of paper explaining the physical properties used in this mode of transportation?

BL: The physical properties. You mean the...

QF: I mean the formulas used in the Gravity "A." Kind of, an explanation for...

BL: Well, if you want to give me your name and address, I've got a couple things I wrote up that just basically covers some of the... It's a more technical description of exactly what's going on, that you really can't explain without drawing it.

Q: Is there such a place as Area 99 that you know about?

BL: I've never heard of it.

Q: Do you feel that you're being watched currently, and do you have any interaction with security?

BL: Strange you should mention that. There's been nothing for probably these four years, three years, whatever it's been, but the other day one of my phone lines has not been working and the other one was breaking up, so I called Centel down and they checked the house out and said there's nothing in the wiring here, and they called me down from Charleston Boulevard, from the telephone pole and they said my individual line was cut and that the other one, that the other wires were stripped and twist-tied together. Of course, me, being paranoid, thinks, well, that someone tapped in there, but I really can't think of another excuse, as me being, just my single line's being played with, but that's what he said, and they filed a report on that, so that's one form of documentation.

Q: You say your records at Cal-Tech and M.I.T. have somehow disappeared...

BL: And Los Alamos and probably everywhere else.

QF: Is there any way you could reconstruct your course work and your professors?

BL: Oh, sure, I've got people that I went to school with, and George Knapp has spoken to some of them and even flew with me up to Los Alamos and spoke to my colleagues there.

QF: Could you reveal some of your professors at M.I.T. and Cal-Tech?

BL: Yeah, if you want. I don't have a list of them here. Dr. Duxler I think was one of them. And Hohsfield was another.

QF: Hohsfield?

BL: Hohsfield. H-O-H-S-F-I-E-L-D, or something along those lines.

QF: Would he remember you?

BL: Oh, yeah. Hohsfield I know will.

QF: These are at M.I.T. or Cal-Tech?

BL: Hohsfield was at M.I.T. Duxler was at Cal-Tech.

[Editor's Note: In field research at the MIT Institute Archives in June 1993, the editor was unable to locate any MIT faculty member by the name Hohsfield in any published directory or staff list--present or as far back as 1980. There is also no listing for Hohsfield in current national faculty directories. National faculty directories list only one Duxler. He is William Duxler, listed as Director of Computing at Los Angeles Pierce College, not Cal-Tech.]

Q: Who's Barry?

BL: Barry's a guy I worked with. We essentially worked on the buddy system there. Someone you have ideas to bounce off of, and Barry Castilio or Castille...

QF: Was he there before you, or still there?

BL: Yeah, a long time. Probably still there.

Q: Did you get any information from him?

BL: Well, he essentially taught me everything that they had done up to date.

Q: In the course of your work, did they ever mention any other facilities or installations around the country where associated work was being done.

BL: No. They did mention, though, that this was the place that all of this stuff was brought to. It was really purposely condensed here to keep an eye on everything and have immediate access to everything that dealt with this, the alien technology.

Q: Regarding the craft, the alien craft, were there any test personnel that had crashed them, and if so, do you know about what the causes were. BL: I didn't read about any crashes during tests, at all, though you'd think that there would be some, but I didn't...

Q: When you were at Cal-Tech, were you affiliated with any of the student houses?

BL: No.

Q: When I first heard of S-4, it reminded me a lot of disk testing I've heard of that goes on in Australia at Pine Gap, and I was wondering if you know anything about Pine Gap. Did you read anything about Pine Gap that you could tell us about?

BL: I really don't keep abreast of the UFO information. As far as officially, I never read anything. I've heard the name Pine Gap mentioned, but I haven't heard anything about that.

Q: Has anyone ever approached you with a screenplay offer?

BL: Oh, God, yeah. Constantly.

QF: Have you ever considered it?

BL: Ah, yeah. The main problem, Columbia Pictures last year really wanted to do it, and they said we're making a screenplay, and my only problem is that, if you guys are going to make a movie, it has to be exactly what happened and not the Hollywood version. I don't want to see Steven Segal in it, or anything.

[Laughter and applause.]

Q: I don't know too much about your experiential background or your expertise, but do you have any speculation why they recruited someone with a Master's instead of a Ph.D.?

BL: No, that's a really good question. Like I've always said, there's plenty more people qualified than I am, and if there's any reason... There's only two reasons they could have: It's either, number one, was the Dr. Teller essentially juiced me into the position that said, There's a guy, Bob Lazar, I know him, find a place for him. Or the fact that I have traditionally approached everything from a very strange angle, essentially off the beaten path, in tackling technical problems. So, it's only one of those two reasons, unless there's a third one that I have no idea about.

Q: Two things: Do you think they'll ever release this information and if they don't, how do you think it will ever come out? Besides people like... Or will it be something like what you're doing?

BL: Hopefully, it's not this way. Hopefully, there's going to be a release of information eventually, but whether or not they're going to say, Hey, we've been keeping this secret for so long. It almost seems to me that they need a staged incident to get them off the hook. Take a flying saucer up in a C-130 and push it out the back and say, Look, a crash, and start it that way.

[Laughter.]

Q: How would they overcome the "G" forces in these rapid changes of direction.

BL: They don't apply once you have distorted... Distorting gravity... Essentially having a gravity amplifier distorts time and space, and those really don't apply. There's no interaction.

QF: So there would be no effect on humans, either?

BL: No, there's no effect inside at all.

Q: Bob, when you were working on the S-4 project, did your education and whatever scientific vision that you have permit you to believe that at some point you'd be able to make a meaningful contribution to the program, and if so after how much time approximately?

BL: I was always in serious doubt whether or not they were going to get rid of me, because I had... there really wasn't anything that I could contribute. I wasn't an expert in any particular field that they were dealing with. I mean, I made some contributions as far determining what the element they were dealing with was.

QF: That was significant, right?

BL: Yeah. To some degree.

Q: I was just wondering, when you were at M.I.T. and Cal-Tech, did you come from a pretty... Was your education pretty traditionally grounded as far as your own views as far as physics and what is considered common knowledge as opposed to theoretical things. In other words, how surprised were you when they started showing you all of this hardware and these concepts that could do things that is really...

BL: Oh, very. I was...

QF: How long did it take you to start grasping that where you could really...?

BL: Even when I was reading the documentation, the alien question really never entered my mind. I kept pushing it off to all this group of scientists secretly came up with... I never... I just had a mental block against that because I always thought flying saucers were totally ridiculous and the people that really paid attention to such phenomena were just out in left field.

AUDIENCE: Thanks, Bob.

[Laughter.]

BL: But it really made very little sense to me that anyone would deal with something like that. So I really held out to the very end, until they finally said, Well Bob... That was it.

Q: While at S-4, did you ever hear any Air Force or military squadron numbers or names bandied about?

BL: Yeah, I probably did, but I can't remember. I do remember someone talking about something along those lines. I don't think they were pilots, but they were someone related to the Air Force... or they were talking about the Air Force, and I think they mentioned a squadron, and I don't know if that was what they called the group that flew the craft or it was someone else at Groom Lake, I really don't know.

QF: Names or anything like that?

BL: No, there really wasn't much idle banter going on.

Q: Do you suppose the gravitational field of these crafts and so forth... If you were to amplify it enough, could you enlarge the area that you wanted to take? In other words, could you move more than just the craft itself? Say, two craft under the same power source and so forth? Or have you even considered something like that?

AUDIENCE: Like a tractor beam?

BL: It's possible, as long as they were both essentially in the field that was being emitted. I really don't know how the level of energy relates to the amount of mass that can be bent that way or how the amount of space that can... Those numbers I really don't have, so...

QF: Do you think it would be feasible?

BL: Probably.

Q: What kind of control or instrument systems did they have?

BL: I really don't know. Anything that I assume was control systems or instrumentation was up above, and I think that was where the navigation computation took place. I dealt with only the power hungry components essentially.

Q: When you were at S-4, was there ever either a period within a day or even a couple of days where you at this point don't remember what you were doing during that time? And was there ever a period of time that you're not able to account for?

BL: Yeah, I said that, and again that's been taken and bent a lot of different ways, too. There were times that I left... It's because so much stuff I was exposed to. I was essentially drowned in information, and when I got back home I really couldn't remember what day anything happened. But did I forget big chunks of knowledge? No, I just...

QF: Now, were there periods of days where you haven't recalled what happened in those days...?

BL: No.

QF: And second--You probably don't want to get into this, but I'd really appreciate it if you would.--When you were walking either by the hallway or down...

BL: Oh, no.

QF: ...by the door...

BL: Yeah.

QF: ...with the window in it, and you looked through. Could you go into that and describe what you did see? Even if you're not sure, just state it as exactly as it was.

BL: Well, this has to be taken in the right context, too. First of all, being surrounded by the flying saucers, knowing that the alien thing exists and all this technology... When I was walking down a hall to the... I don't remember where I was going anymore, but... Different doors to the hangers are small nine inch square windows with wire mesh running through them. I looked in one as I walked by and was told to keep my head forward. I saw the backs of two guys and they were talking to a child, or I thought it was a small child. Of course, when I told that to John Lear, he said, That was an alien, Bob, there's no doubt. I don't know what it was. I don't know if it was a small guy, but it just looked weird, and it was just a glance, so, Do I think it was an alien? No.

QF: Did you see the, quote, small guy? Did you see the small guy, or you only saw the two guys looking downward?

BL: No, I saw the small guy.

QF: You saw the small guy that they were talking to.

BL: Yeah.

QF: Was it...?

BL: It was just a glance. I have no idea. That's why I said... Believe me, if it had a rounded head and big eyes, I'd say, Hey, there's an alien there, but I can't say that.

QF: But it was a small person or someone there.

BL: Yeah. You see, I don't think anyone can bring their kids down there, so I don't know... But, for that matter, they could have been holding up a...

QF: Do you realize you're talking to a crowd that has had a lot of personal experience. A lot of these people...

BL: Right, but also look at it from a technical viewpoint that it could be a model, a life size model, and they were trying to see how the size relationship works and the seats and other parts of the craft and what's accessible, so it doesn't necessarily mean that it was a living being.

QF: Thank you.

Q: Would you mind speaking at all about how this body of knowledge has effected you emotionally or maybe spiritually. Are you frightened by the implications of what all this means?

BL: No.

QF: You've no doubt thought about the overall agenda. You've speculated I'm sure on your own.

BL: Yeah, but it's difficult to really put a finger on it. Since there's so little evidence to go on, and really 99% of the stuff that I hear I really don't even come close to believing it all. And it's not just because I'm skeptical; it's because it's absolutely ridiculous. I even--though it's stepping on a lot of people's toes--I think that 99% of the sightings out here are absolutely not flying saucers. Most people are watching 737s come into Groom Lake, and they make the turn up there, and there's lights on the planes. Along the same lines, there's these parachuted flares that they fire off near the Papoose Lake area, and they're an orange color, which is pretty coincidental, and they're on a essentially modified small hot-air balloon, so the burning heat of the flare keeps it afloat longer. And whether they're doing that for disinformation or practicing how missiles lock on to heat seeking targets, I don't know. But I think 99% of that stuff is what people who come around this area are seeing.

Q: It seems as if even knowing that we possess alien technology hasn't even made you a believer.

BL: That's probably true. Well, it has. I believe the stuff I worked on, there's absolutely no question in my mind, but I think everyone can only go so far, and I just hate to speculate because I hate to be wrong. I don't want to say, Well, they had to be given to us because we didn't shoot them down, so I just stop right there.

QF: I think we forget sometime that you're a scientist.

BL: Maybe do. I stop with what I am pretty sure with, and that's it.

Q: What is your synopsis in a nutshell? What you saw and what you experienced.

BL: Well, I can. Like I said, I stop before that. I have lots of possible ideas in my mind, but...

QF: Can you tell me, on what your experience was, only on what you saw, what is your synopsis?

BL: My synopsis of what I know to be true?

QF: Yes.

BL: That the government is holding nine alien spacecraft that are propelled by a modified gravity generator. The work is being conducted 15 miles south of Groom Lake, at that isolated area only, designated as S-4. That at least one of those crafts operate, and that's about it.

QF: Okay. Thank you.

Q: What did your work environment smell like? Were there any unusual odors from the craft or anywhere else?

BL: No, none at all.

Q: Did you ever see the word S-4 written anywhere?

BL: That's a good question. Did I ever see S-4 written anywhere?

AUDIENCE: What was the question?

HOST: The question is, Did he ever see S-4 written anywhere?

AUDIENCE: On your badge.

BL: Yeah, the S-4 was punched out on the badge, but more along the lines I was thinking was a sign, and I think near... where you approach the Papoose Mountain Range that there is a sign that designates it as S-4. I'm pretty sure I saw a sign there because I can only see out the front window when I'm going through there. I'm really not sure what it said, but since most other signs designated... It said "area" or "tech area" or something along those lines... That might have been S-4 if that's what you're referring to.

QF: So you just heard it orally.

BL: Yeah, and, as someone else mentioned, on the badge. That was... star punched out there, but as far as an actual sign to the area, I didn't see it in any other writing.

HOST: Did you ever see it on the badge, or since it was punched out you wouldn't see it?

BL: Well, it really says it directly above it. I mean the star punch...

HOST: Oh, so how was it written? Es, four...

BL: Es dash four.

HOST: Oh, a dash. There's a hyphen in there?

BL: Yeah.

HOST: Oh. Bill Moore's making a big thing of it, says, How do you write it? Talking to George Knapp, trying to debunk the whole thing. "How do you write S-4?"

BL: Does it make a difference?

HOST: Right, right.

BL: Well, I know there's a lot of people who don't believe the story altogether, but there's really a limit to what else I can possibly do to show people what happened, other than relaying some of the information and things along those lines.

Q: What kind of work are you doing now? BL: A variety of things. I mean everything from... I have three separate companies. One deals with commercial photo processing. The other one is developing and repairing alpha radiation detectors for radiation off of plutonium, which unfortunately that's going down the tubes because they stopped the testing out here. And I do computer graphics--a lot of that. And music videos, believe it or not.

Q: Are you still building and racing jet cars?

BL: Well, I don't do it for money anymore, no. I just take the jet car out and run it around. I kind of got scared when... When I originally started racing jet cars, there were twenty-five people, or something along those lines, who were licensed to drive. Now, there's like seven, and when I stopped racing the guy that trained me crashed, and everyone else is dead, so... I don't race anymore.

QF: Do you still have the Lamborgini?

BL: The body's sitting in the backyard. The car I take out once every couple weeks to the dry lake and play around.

Q: Two questions. Do you have any idea how they achieved that proton source as a steady stream in such a small reactor?

BL: It could be a radioactive element. You could use... Well, a proton source could certainly be... They could be using alpha particles for that matter, which is essentially a helium nuclei, and there's lots of elements that can do that.

QF: The other part is, in the video we saw, the badge and the capitol letters MAJ, was that actually on your badge?

BL: Yeah, that was really on there, and I was told Majestic was the level of clearance that that was cleared for. That makes you wonder about Bill Moore's thing, the MJ-12 documents and all that... Is that actual? Considering that these guys had made posters that "They're Here" and things like that, they could have taken Majestic and made it the name of it just as kind of a tongue and cheek thing. Or was that actual evidence that Majestic 12 actually existed and all that?

Q: What about your other associates, did their badge look identical to the one we saw?

BL: Pretty much so, except Dennis' looked different, and for the most part they had different areas punched in them.

Q: At one time you said that the scientific community should be the ones in charge of the research of this. What name would you put out, who would you think would be qualified enough to head a group like that, as far as being able to decipher what was going on and stuff like that. Do you have any names that you could pull out?

BL: Yeah, but they're friends, essentially, that I've worked with before, but I know what their expertise is in.

QF: ...and do you think that the names you come up with, they'd get along well enough to be a...

BL: Well, one of them was Joe Vananetti, a guy that I worked with at Los Alamos, one of my colleagues, and I was trying to force his resume on them. And they did take it and look at it. I was kind of hoping... He would be a big boon to the project, but I had already left by the time they would have had to look at it.

Q: Concerning the local sightings here, I've personally seen two at one time maneuvering, along with a third one later, and they looked and performed exactly like your video that you took that night that was broadcast.

BL: Now, not to... I'm not attacking anyone that's had sightings but there are a lot of... there's a lot of atmospheric phenomena that can relate to... I'm beginning to sound like Phil Klass here, but...

[Laughter]

AUDIENCE: People who live in glass houses...

Yeah. But just to give it a fair shake... In fact, what's that guy's name... Glenn Campbell, who wrote that Area 51 guide and brought up-- I don't think he believes my story.--but I think he brought up some very good points in that in that a lot of that stuff can be mistaken. If you're looking at somethig with the naked eye, a lot of times it can look like it jumps around and things like that, especially if you're staring at it for a long time. It all depends how it's looked at. Obviously, if it's something dramatic, if something is close, if something makes a tremendous jump a great distance, other than a little white light that looks like the head of a pin, that's a different story, and if that's what you saw, than that remains unexplained.

QF: Well, that's what I'm referring to, because it was very close, both of them were very close, and they would get brighter and darker just like your videos, sometimes almost strobe, and they were down on the ground, got bright, took off and moved around. And my main question I was going to ask is that not all the time the light was on. It seemed like when they were getting ready to take off, they'd power up, get very bright and take off, but when they were moving around, they could shut the lights completely off...

BL: No, they can't shut them off. What happened is that the craft probably pitched with the bottom toward you, and it looked like the light was off, because you can't see the light from the bottom.

QF: I see, thanks.

Q: Two questions. One is nuts and bolts, but why do they generate light? Why do you see any light at all?

BL: Well, to just answer that one first. That's essentially operating like a fluorescent tube. Anywhere you have... You can take a powerful radio transmitter and you take a neon tube and you bring it near it, it's going to light it up, just because the atoms are getting excited.

QF: There's certainly an excitation around the area.

BL: Right. The electrons go to a higher energy state; they drop down and release a photon, and that's what's going on.

QF: And secondly, just to change the venue and force you to speculate, now that you've had some time to think back on some things, do you want to elaborate any more on your ideas of what "containers" are? Why we are referred to as containers?

BL: I can't even guess. All I can say is exactly the way it was written, because as soon as I speculate on something, people are going to lean towards that way, and its fair.

QF: Do those documents at all ascribe a purpose to why these genetic manipulations were being done?

BL: No. You know, this was not a large briefing. I had 90% of the material that I read was dealing with my project, and when I mean briefings, I mean two sheets of paper, is just the information I got on whatever else was going on, probably to alleviate my curiosity, and that was about it.

Q: What do you know about the Aurora? Is there anything about the Aurora that you might contribute to the UFO...?

BL: No. The Aurora I did see once on the way out there, and the only reason I say it's the Aurora is, I was told it by Dennis in the bus. And it makes an unbelievably loud sound, and I think when I heard it I said, it sound's like the sky is tearing. From what I understand, it operates on a liquid methane powered engine. A lot of this information has gotten out in Aviation Week and Popular Science. If this in fact was Aurora, it was certainly a strange aircraft. It looked like, if you know what the old X-15 looked like--A very long slender craft with short wings on it--and a square exhaust that had little vanes in it.

QF: Was it quite large?

BL: Is it large? Yes, it's quite large. It's a really overgrown thing. And there are a couple people who came up who I described the sound to, and one of them was John Andrews from the Testors model corporation, and they're always spying around to make the most recent models of the Stealth and things like that, and he heard the exact sound that I described. Unfortunately, he couldn't record it, but that really got him lit up. He probably has more information about it than I do.

Q: When you listen to some abduction reports, whether or not people believe it or not, there seems to be a common thread of people being hit by blue beams of light. Did you ever talk to anybody in your work about technology that could explain that, or is these an extrapolation of the propulsion systems that you worked on, principals that could explain something like that?

BL: Any of the three gravity amplifiers could do that, could lift something off the ground, or for that matter compact it into the ground. That's not a problem, because the craft in fact can operate on one amplifier, in omicron mode, hovering. That would leave the other three amplifiers free to do anything. So I imagine they could pick up cows or whatever else they want to do. On the craft that I worked on there was absolutely no provision for anything to come in through the bottom of the craft, or anything along those lines, so if that in fact does happen, it's in a completely different kind of craft.

QF: Is a blue color consistently what you would expect?

BL: That's more consistent than the crafts glowing orange, because the interaction of the... It should, with a nitrogen atmosphere, glow blue.

Q: Did the ship appear to be cast in one piece of metal?

BL: Not cast. Well, it looks more like it was injection molded, because there was no sharp objects. Even where the seats meet the floor is curved. The top of everything, I think the analogy I gave, it looked like it was completely made of wax and heated until it melted and then cooled down. Everything was completely perfectly rounded. And if in fact you're talking about something that's containing a high voltage field, that's exactly what you want to have to prevent the corona discharge from spraying off.

Q: How can you focus a gravity wave on something that's so many millions and millions of miles away?

BL: Well, first of all, I don't think they focus it that far away. Like I was talking with someone else, I think these trips are made in several small jumps, because the amount of energy required to do something like that... It's not really that, not the amount of energy, but if you're looking at three amplifiers that focus down to something the size of a tennis ball, that the amount of precision that's required to move the amplifier with minimal deviation out there eventually is going to exceed anyone's level of technology. If you're doing a jump of a thousand miles, that's tremendously impressive. I can't see them jumping a light year, much less thirty. It just doesn't seem possible.

Q: Do you have knowledge of, or can you speculate on what these small silver round...[?]...balls are that seem to be associated with the crafts?

BL: I never heard of them.

Q: In the video surrounding UFOs in Mexico City during the eclipse, there's some very remarkable video of a pulsation of some sort of field surrounding these UFOs. Would that be an attribute, could that be attributable to the type of technology that you saw?

BL: It's possible. Was it an optical distortion?

QF: Absolutely. We saw a pulse, pulse, and the polarization of the pulsed seemed to be changing as well.

BL: That's certainly possible.

Q: In your video you were mentioning in your readings that the aliens had a capability of anesthetizing a human brain and that could be broken by either rock music or stimulants.

BL: Rock music. Did I actually say that in the tape?

AUDIENCE: Load music.

BL: Loud music, okay.

QF: Could you give me more information on that.

BL: Yeah, apparently whatever it... I don't know what else to call it other than some sort of anesthetizing hypnosis, along those lines, but anything that distracts attention at a high level, certainly some sort of stimulant drug or something that gets someone riled up would not permit that to happen. It's just like modern hypnosis--or not really modern hypnosis, but in hypnosis in general, if you're not in a relaxed state, you're not going to get into that level of consciousness. If you're in a very alert, awake state, it's going to be hard to cause that effect, again if in fact that is correct information.

Q: What context was that information in?

BL: That dealt with some of the biological effects of the aliens on... I think essentially on the human race is how it was termed. This was in, I think it was part of the autopsy reports because they had the single organ they had in their body cross sectioned and split up and I think there was comments in there about what different functions of the brains are, and I think that's where this came up, because they were trying to relate some unknown lobe of the brain to this function, but that's so typical. There again, like in particle physics, we don't know what it is, so, Hey, that's what does it. It's not necessarily true.

Q: I hope you won't be offended by this question. I have to ask it to verify you're bona fide. Have you ever gone by any other name?

BL: Have I ever gone by anything other name? No.

QF: You've been Bob Lazar from birth.

BL: As far as I know.

Q: Do you have any other biological information on the aliens, besides that they have one organ?

BL: No, that's all I have, and that was essentially just from looking at a photograph.

QF: We don't know if they eat or drink.

BL: They probably do but I don't.

Q: This is really just a comment, because you mentioned how you feel about Billy Meier, that whole scene, but you said that the craft that you worked on looks just like the craft from the Billy Meier case...

BL: One of them, yeah.

QF: However, the beings that Billy Meier supposedly was in contact with are supposedly full-size, like average human beings, and you said that the craft you worked on had chairs that a full person could not sit on.

BL: But if you looked at the Billy Meier information, I think somewhere in there--Maybe I've got this wrong, because so much stuff has gone through my head.--They, the large people that apparently flew the craft did not produce the craft. They think Billy Meier said it was obtained from creatures that were two meters tall, or a meter tall, or something along those lines.

QF: Which craft is that?

BL: The Billy Meier.

QF: Well, they claim that they were operating the craft during those contacts.

BL: Well, so were our guys, for that matter, so I imagine they could be retrofitted. I don't know. I can't go either way. I know the one that I worked on was small and was certainly uncomfortable for anything in the area of five to six feet to walk around in.

Q: Bob, were the other eight crafts given to us by the same aliens, and what did we give them.

BL: I don't know. That's information that wasn't given to me, but I think as I said on my tape and an interview somewhere, one of them absolutely had a projectile hole through it. I don't believe it was shot down--This is a personal belief.--but more along the lines it was stood up on its side to see how the metal would react to a high speed projectile going through it.

Q: You were there for, what, four to six months?

BL: Yeah.

QF: You had a lot of contact with security obviously.

BL: Yeah, too much.

QF: Did you have a result escort, same person? How did they act? Did you talk to them?

BL: No, I never talked to them. I can't stand them. They only went so far. If I was in the lab area and I went to the bathroom, they guy that came with me, or that was by the door, went to the bathroom, he would go so far, and if I was leaving the perimeter, there would be another guy that went from that distance on.

QF: Was he armed.

BL: Yeah, oh yeah.

QF: Was he Army, Air Force, could you tell?

BL: I don't know.

QF: Any insignias on his uniform?

BL: No. Like I said, they had a dark blue uniform, most of the guys there, except a few of the people outside had desert cammo stuff on.

QF: Headgear, beret, cap?

BL: No, they didn't have any hats on.

QF: There wasn't any insignia or anything on them. They just had a pistol and that was it?

BL: There might have been, but at the time I probably didn't pay much attention to it. I was trying to put the guy out of my mind, not study him.

QF: They never wanted to talk to you... Did they all seem like the stern Delta Force type?

BL: Oh, yeah. They weren't the least bit interested in what was going on. What they've been briefed on, I have no idea. To them, it seemed like we were a nuisance, but it's the reason that they're there, so I don't know where they...

Q: Did you ever see any inside hardware of this machine? The nuts and bolts, wires? And obviously, you probably did. Did it look like our nuts and bolts, wires we get at the hardware store?

BL: Well, as far as fastening devices, everything was formed together. There were no nuts and bolts. Wires, there were no connecting wires even between electrical systems.

QF: So what was the course of energy? How did it go from one area to another area?

BL: The best guess is essentially it operated like a Tesla coil does. A transmitter and essentially a receiver tuned to the transmitting frequency and receives electrical power. There again, that's not real advanced technology. Tesla did that in the 30s, I think.

QF: Lights on the console, were they plastic?

BL: No, no lights. There were no lights.

Q: Was the craft monolithic in construction?

BL: Yes.

Q: Could you recount for us in detail your memory of what happened the night you and the group of people were discovered on the perimeter of the viewing area when you saw the craft?

BL: I bet John Lear tells a different story than this?

QF: It was compelling, and I just would be curious to hear your point. In particular, there was one aspect of the story: He said evidently when they were... vehicles... some ten unmarked Broncos were...

BL: How many?

QF: He said five on each side of the road. Ten.

BL: Must have been a different time. No.

QF: You either jumped from the car or left the occupants of the car to go out into the desert so that you wouldn't be discovered amongst the people there, and you returned...

BL: That's true. Okay, what really happened... We drove... Well, John Lear's a nice guy. I like him, but he does have the tendency to add about fifteen percent color to stories, and if a story goes through him twice, it's thirty percent, and it doesn't stop.

[Laughter.]

But what happened that night is we took a... Gene, my wife at the time and her sister were going to go out and see what we could see, because there was a test flight coming up. And John knew that we were up to something, because we didn't invite him in, and he showed up at the house and said, okay, well we're going and, you know, come on. We had rented a car because the only reason we rented a car was because sister-in-law was in from out of town, all I've ever owned, usually a sports car, they seat two people, and that's all we had, so we had rented a car and we had rented a car and we all piled into that. And we drove out there. I don't remember what time we got there at. It got dark. We waited right till dusk to drive up the road, and we got probably about seven miles in, I think, and we were very careful not to hit the brakes because we didn't want the lights going on, because we knew, by watching up there on the road beforehand, we knew there was security guys running around just looking.

QF: Was this the Mailbox Road?

BL: No, I've never been on Mailbox Road. It's Groom Road, that big one that goes out there. Well, I was probably on Mailbox Road, but I didn't watch anything from there. We drove in probably about five to seven miles, and we brought all kinds of stuff with us. We brought Geiger counters. We brought a Celestron ten inch telescope. I brought a nine millimeter pistol...

[End of tape, side 2. Short break in recording.]

...any reaction. And then somebody opened the door and the dome light went on, and as soon as that happened, two different sets of headlights lit up on either side of us, and we said, That's it, we're dead. So I went in the truck [?], and I got my pistol and I went out into the desert. Oh, no, I got that wrong. We hopped in the car, and then started really hauling ass back to the exit, thinking if we can get to the road in time we're out of their jurisdiction, there's no problem. So we got about halfway up there, and I think there were three vehicles, maximum. I stopped, and we had figured we're not getting out of there because as we were getting close to the top of the road, you can see another vehicle pull in, and I said, we're trapped. I got off and ran out into the desert. Now, the rest of the story is from the people that were there, because I was out in the desert laying down on the ground. Supposedly what happened was, these guys came out. John set up the telescope real fast.

[Laughter]

That was the best excuse he could come up with. And the guys came over and said... I think John interrupted them and say, "Hey, what are you guys trying to do a drug deal or something? Did we interrupt something?" And they kind of just shrugged that off, and John said, well, we're looking a Jupiter. And they said, what are you guys doing out here. They just ignored whatever he had to say, and went on for a while. I don't remember the conversation because I wasn't there. Now, it was pitch black. You couldn't see your hand in front of your face; it was a moonless night, and they said, All right, just get the hell out of here. They backed off down the road, and they stopped, but we didn't know that, and turned around.

QF: You could see all this happening, right?

BL: No, my head was down. I didn't want my glasses or my white face shining.

QF: A few hundred yards away.

BL: A few hundred yards away, they had stopped. No one knew this at the time, and I came back out of the desert. And I'm usually very sarcastic and joke around, and what I said was when Gene Huff was standing there, I said, "Man, we're lucky those guys didn't see the other fifty Delta force we had out there," or something along those lines, that could have taken them out at any time. And he laughed. I don't remember the exact content of the joke, but those guys heard that. And they're sitting there watching us, so I guess... Now, I learned about most of this from the debriefing afterwards, when they took me in. The guys that were there, were on top of the truck or Jeep they had, and they went to arms, because they thought there were guys standing out there, so they had us all under gun point, and we didn't know what was going on. And we're sitting there talking about everything that had happened and flying saucers and all that stuff, sitting on the bumper, and we're just looking off down the road, and we see a little green light drop on the ground and roll around, and it was a night vision scope, and someone picks it up and it disappears. And we said, well, let's get the hell out of here.

QF: What's that?

BL: One of the guards had dropped a night vision scope and it rolled on the ground, and we could see the little green image rolling around, and you see it pick up and disappear. And it was only from here to the netting over there, that was the distance because it was completely dark. [About 30 feet.-Ed.] So we got scared, and as soon as we got in the car, we all agreed, they're right there. And they heard everything, so we took off, and we got to the top of the road, and a Lincoln County Sheriff was there, and that was another major hassle. He wanted to search the car; we wouldn't let him, and he was in radio contact with the base or these guys out there. They said, Where did the extra guy come from? That completely confused them, because I guess they had never seen me come up, or something like that; they thought I was another guy that walked around, however I came. Anyway, the big problem was that there was another guy, and I think legally they can only hold you there for an hour, and we were there for, like, fifty-nine minutes, and he said, Okay, go, but he really wanted to search... Oh, I got to backtrack a bit. John Lear made the colossal mistake. We were under just minimal suspicion at the time, and he asked for everyone's ID, and in the trunk we had everything, the Geiger counters and all that stuff. The people that didn't want to show their ID, said, well, we don't have it; we left it at home, and the other ones that did, took it out, and John said, Wait, mine's in the trunk, and he opens the trunk, and here's all the stuff laying there, and that's when the cop decided to keep us for a long time. We've always hassled John about that forever. And he said, so you guys are out here with a Geiger counter, a telescope and all this other hardware, sound equipment and video stuff, and you're just out walking around? And we all said, Yeah, so that's when he kept us. That's really what happened that day. And the following day, it was a work day for me, but I was taken into debriefing and yelled at for a long time.

Q: You were never allowed to return to S-4 after that, huh?

BL: Right. Well, that was kind of a turning point that day.

Q: Were you fired then? Were you officially fired?

BL: No, I was never fired. See, at the time, they were going to pull my clearance before that. I don't know if that was ever clear. The main reason was, for me not progressing any further there, was they halted my clearance, because at the time I had... my phone was being tapped, and I allowed that. I signed the order to do that and have them go through my background, and at the time, I didn't tell my wife what was going on, until later as things progressed. But she was having an affair with somebody on the phone line. It was her flight instructor that I was paying for flying lessons, by the way. But as this was going on... Just like in the astronaut program, not only do you have to have security as far as no connection to foreign governments and things like that, but as far as your family life, it has to be stable, because they don't want any loose cannons running around. So this was going on; I had no knowledge of it. And they said, well, what they were going to do is not say anything to me and wait until one way or another the situation resolved itself: either my wife took off or came to an end or whatever. So when I was in debriefing, essentially that day, this is when they really started attacking me and hassling me, and that's when they took out the phone transcripts, saying, Hey, by the way, Bob, your wife's fucking somebody, and that was the last time I went back. So that was a real fun time.

Q: Did you see stuff out at S-4 that you've chosen not to talk about?

BL: Did I see stuff at S-4...?

QF: Yeah, is there more going on that basically you've decided not to...?

BL: Yeah, but not that really changes anything. It's just little technical things that it's really not worth bringing up.

Q: Yeah, real quick, did you see any paper work on how they got the disks to start with?

BL: No. That's pure speculation.

Q: What did you have the Geiger counters for, and do you believe... are there dangerous levels of radiation in this area because of the testing they did previous to now, previous to this point?

BL: I think we just wanted to see the background level and... I don't remember. It was just a staple to take along with you. Just bring a Geiger counter.

QF: I understand that this area tests high for radioactivity, the background levels are high in this area. Is that true, to your knowledge?

BL: I don't know. We had the Geiger counter, but before I got to measure the background... I don't know what it was.

Q: Bob, this might be important, because Jacques Vallee is such stature, and he's trying to debunk you on the basis of, supposedly he's telling your report only that you saw a DVM and an oscilloscope at S-4.

[Editor's Note: Refers to Vallee's chapter critical of Lazar in his book Revelations.--Ed.]

BL: As far as the equipment there?

QF: Yeah.

BL: This is another thing that's gotten so twisted. Jacques Vallee, who's a UFO writer of some sort, came to see me in Las Vegas. I don't remember how long ago it was, but after the George Knapp thing. He came down with some producers from Universal Studios who was [sic] going to make a movie about his book Intruders... not Intruders, that's someone else... Dimensions, or something. Anyway, they came down with him, and they said, Well, we want to know what you think of this. Just give us your opinion if this jives. I looked at the information, and he explained it to me, and I said, That has nothing to do with the craft that I worked on or any of the technology that I was involved in. Period. And Jacques really didn't appreciate that, but they asked for my opinion. So I said, as far as the conclusions he's drawn, I don't agree them; I think they're completely wrong, and so on and so forth. So he really didn't like me after that point. And so he began to interview me and he said, Well, what did you do here and here, and I went over things... And this is on tape, so I don't see even why he would make a fuss of it, but he said, Well, what kind of equipment did you have to work with? And I said, a wide variety of different things. And he said, we what about at your bench, what was on your bench? I said, Anything you find at a normal tech bench. I said oscilloscopes, DVMs, things like that. And he said, Okay. And later I heard through the grapevine that he's out doing a lecture: Bob Lazar said he back engineered the flying saucers with an oscilloscope and a DVM. I mean, it was on tape, and I think a lot of that's he's really pretty pissed at me for shooting down the movie, but I had no idea that was going to be the effect, or else I would have reserved my opinion. It's just the way it goes.

Q: What was the physical layout of the compound where you worked at like? Could you describe it?

BL: It was long. It was on the side of the mountain range there. All the hanger doors went alongside, and then there's a long corridor that goes down in back of the hangers. Off that corridor comes several rooms, only two or three of which I've been in: The medical area, the lab that I work in, and then there's a small little room where I read some briefings and things along those lines. But I haven't been any of the other rooms or know if there are things behind it or underneath it, so that's all I can help you with on that.

Q: Last night, John Lear said that you really didn't believe that there was anything unusual going on in those Space Shuttle shots; you thought it was ice particles.

AUDIENCE: The SDS 48.

BL: Oh, yeah. That's not ice; this is dust. There's no ifs, ands or buts about that.

QF: Have you seen the Hoagland analysis?

[Editor's Note: Richard Hoagland has produced books and video tapes on alleged "monuments on Mars" and objects filmed from the Space Shuttle.]

BL: Yeah, I've seen the whole thing. I copied it from NASA. Unfortunately, it would be neat if they were flying saucers, but if you see a bright white flash first, that's the positioning thruster firing on the left side of the shuttle.

QF: But the attitude of the shuttle didn't change when...

BL: No, it normally doesn't do that. Those are station keeping thrusters. It all depends. If the thruster is firing in the direction of the shuttle, keeping its forward momentum, there'll be no attitude change. That's only if your firing a pitch rocket will you see a change like that. And the fact that it flew forward means that it was firing in the direction of the shuttle, so those little dots you see I firmly believe, because I've seen other things along those lines, are right on the lens, not on the horizon. That's why you see a flash; there's a delay and then particles that are normally floating in space you see dart off like that because of the delay time from that. Until I see something else that leads me to believe that... I know it looked neat. There was a flash and something came up from the ground, but if you just watch that and think that these are right against the lens and that bright flash is one of the thrusters firing, that you'll probably have a different opinion of it.

Q: Well what about the right angle move? It's a 45 degree turn, which means it has to stop.

BL: You're talking about little dust particles that are moving, and then when the thruster fired, there's no mass to them and they reverse direction.

Q: Other particles in the video that do the exact same thing.

BL: Yeah, if you look at the whole video and not just the crop down, there's all kinds of junk floating around, and when that thruster fires, there's about a one second delay and everything goes flying off, exactly like you'd expect it.

Q: Everything goes flying off and drifting except for one item that accelerates like ten times the speed of all the other items in the video.

BL: Yeah, but there's...

QF: Have you seen Hoagland's detailed breakdown?

BL: Yeah.

QF: What about when he's talking about the light coming over the horizon of the planet, under the layer--I forget what he calls it.--under the layer and over the ionosphere, but over the horizon.

BL: But that still doesn't make sense. It doesn't take into account that something is right on the camera lens.

Q: Did the tape that you listen to, did it have the last transmission from mission control?

BL: I really don't remember. Now, I'm not standing on this like this is absolute fact, but from what I've seen...

QF: Most of the tapes had that edited off, the last obtained sentence: "Heads up Radcomm," which means pay attention and keep your mouth shut.

BL: I don't know. I mean, that's my opinion, and I haven't seen anything to veer me from it, but I always remain open minded. I don't know, that's all I can say.

Q: You mentioned the photon earlier. Do you think that physics is taking a wrong turn by looking for exchange particles, when you're talking about the strong force or gravity again? I'm not clear on why you're skeptical about the graviton.

BL: About the graviton?

QF: Every other force seems to have exchange particles connected with it.

BL: No, not necessarily. I mean, they make it have one, but as time goes on, that really hasn't held true. The bottom line is, they don't... First of all, they don't even believe there's a graviton anymore, so I'm not the only one. As far as exchange particles, still, though some of them like the zeta particle, maybe that's an actual thing, but when they're looking at transfers of energy, I think these are scapegoats for the most part. A lot of experiments that I was doing at Los Alamos essentially was along these same lines, but other exchange particles like the intermediate vector bozon, I don't believe that thing exists. I really don't. I think they're grabbing at straws and just coming up with excuses.

Q: Did you use or see any kind of drawing, mechanical drawing or electrical schematics or...

BL: Oh, sure.

QF: ...any kind of documentation picture which we don't know?

BL: Of what we knew of the amplifier and engineering layouts and things along those lines, and I've duplicated those at home.

Q: Can you explain the difference between a saucer travel characteristics in a fierce gravity well and in zero gravity?

BL: Is there a difference in...?

QF: I mean, the ability for long distance travel, how is it affected by zero gravity?

BL: Well, zero gravity is ideally what it wants. I don't think it wants any other interactive gravity field.

QF: It would be much harder to control, though, in zero gravity.

BL: No, not really.

QF: But as far as you know, there have never been any tests...

BL: No, no tests out of the atmosphere as of 1989 when I left.

Q: Since it is controlling gravity, would it be possible that these things could either make themselves entirely invisible or a field of invisibility by bending the light around the outside of the ship?

BL: Yeah, that's a by-product of what's going on. Any large source of gravity bends light, and you get an intense focused source like that and it's really going to distort it.

Q: Do I understand correctly that you've just said that you've duplicated the gravity amplifiers.

BL: Some of the equipment and most of the drawings, yeah.

QF: When you say duplicated, do you test it to see if it works?

BL: No, not tested it, because I don't have the facilities to do that. But like I mentioned to someone else earlier that this summer, I'll be patenting those drawings and that device itself. Should anyone decide that all of a sudden they've discovered it, since they've made no claim to it, I'll have the patent on it.

[Applause.]

AUDIENCE: That's really part of the Federation, the intergalactic patent treaty. Anybody know about that?

BL: No, I didn't sign that so it doesn't count.

Q: Okay, let's talk about the gravity amplifiers. How do you build a gravity wave detector such that you could determine the frequency and the source, direction of a gravity wave emanating from a planet or other source?

BL: Well, actually a gravity wave detector is a tough thing to make. They are being made. I don't exactly follow what they are doing, but I know the basis of what it is. It is a giant drum. It's 20 or 30 feet long, and it's filled with dry cleaning fluid, carbon tetrachloride in there, and it rotates. I never paid much attention to it. I have no idea how that detects a gravity wave. I think Cal-Tech has even funded one of them.

QF: That means the gravity wave that you're talking about.

BL: Well, a gravity wave is a gravity wave.

QF: What about the small gravity, the Gravity "A", how can you detect that one? What is the frequency of that?

BL: Well, the frequency that the actual reactor operates at is like 7.46 Hertz. It's a very low frequency.

QF: That's the frequency of Earth's gravity, or universally, all gravity?

BL: That's the frequency that the reactor operates at.

Q: Did you use any computer process in the control process?

BL: In the control process? No, I wasn't affiliated with that.

Q: Why would you suppose that the government would continue to spend these massive billions of dollars on space projects that are extended twenty years into the future when it knows it has this technology that would make them all obsolete?

AUDIENCE: Could you repeat the question first?

BL: He wants to know why the government continues to spend millions and billions of dollars on space projects when they have this technology? First of all, you're assuming that the whole one of the government knows what's going on, and that's probably not the case. NASA probably isn't aware of what's going on here. Second of all, just because they have this stuff, they haven't left the earth with it, and they won't, so we still want to send things up in orbit, and that's the most efficient way we have of doing it. It's essentially building a big firework to go up there.

QF: If they spent the same money as developing this technology, or half of it, they'd probably be able...

BL: Not necessarily. Then there's all the money in the world doesn't get you anywhere, though it helps. Of course, if you want to keep something secret, now that's out of the question. But putting that aside, just dumping billions and billions of dollars into it, sure you're going to make big strides, and you get real reasonable people to work on the thing. But you're still going to get stuck around the area of where you don't have the proper materials or the techniques required to manufacture these things, and that's where you'll get stuck.

Q: If your patents, or when you patents get approved, what do you plan on doing at that point? BL: Nothing. Just paying the yearly fee to them and leave them alone.

Q: Could you comment on your debriefing a little further as it happened?

BL: They really... Ididn't go into much. They wanted to know what we were doing out there. They went into, Well, we reviewed this was secret, and when we said it was secret, we didn't mean bring you friends here and thing along those lines. They had flown in two of the guards that were on that truck that were watching us, and it was my impression that they didn't know what was behind the mountain, what we were watching. They were just told to guard what was going on. So I made a point of bringing up the flying saucers and things of that sort. That's when they threatened me. That's when they mentioned the thing about my wife, and they were very pissed about that, and then they escorted those guys out. It was pretty much of a short briefing.

QF: Who was it who debriefed you?

BL: Dennis was there. I really don't know what agency it was.

QF: Was he in uniform?

BL: The guards were in uniform, but the other people weren't. They were in plain clothes.

Q: What about this thing that you and John Lear were working on a cure of AIDS, or something like that?

BL: John Lear and I are not working on the cure for AIDS.

Q: What about your trip to Tokyo that got changed at the last minute?

BL: The trip to Tokyo?

QF: You were expected...

BL: That was... We were invited out by Nippon Television--

HOST whispers something to BL.

BL: Oh, thanks Gary--invited out by Nippon Television to do an interview out there. I got some threatening phone calls, and Gene, who was going with me, is absolutely petrified of flying anywhere, and it took a lot just to get him to go. As soon as the threats came up, I mentioned to him, and he wasn't going. I figured I was going alone, and after a while I just thought that this is a ridiculous trip. Why take the chance, because if they want to do an interview, we could do it over the phone, with a satellite hookup or something. It just was unnecessary, so we skipped it.

Q: I can understand a reactor functioning--theoretically I can understand a reactor functioning at, say, subormuling [?] 7.46 Hertz. There's a waveguide involved. I don't buy 7.46...

BL: No, that's the basic... The frequency of the gravity wave that's produced, it has to be higher frequency, because you're in a microwave range to follow a conduit like that.

QF: I understand from Lear's lecture that it had a tendency to conduct on the outside also of the reactor.

BL: Right. Well that's all... this was the electric field we were talking about. The basic frequency, I think, was the way the reactor's operating. The pulses that we detected out of it were probably, instead of a straight DC power supply, it was more along the lines of a pulse, as if we were getting bursts of particles coming out: An antimatter emission, then a reaction, a pulse of energy, and that would repeat. That's about seven and a half Hertz, something along those lines.

Q: Bob, the microwave frequency going to the waveguide is electromagnetic, or that's gravitational?

BL: They're one in the same.

QF: I don't understand what you mean by that.

BL: Gravity is--Unfortunately, physics hasn't gotten to that part yet.--but gravity essentially is part of the electromagnetic spectrum.

QF: Then what frequency is it? BL: That's something I'm reserving for myself.

QF: Something about the microwave range?

BL Something about the microwave range. Well, you can kind of sort of figure it out by the dimensions of the waveguide itself, and that's about it.

QF: Positive energy versus regular photon?

BL: No, it's not photon.

QF: Electromagnetic energy?

BL: Right. I'm not trying to be secret, but this is part of the equipment that I'm working on, and I want to get it operating before...

QF: I hope we'll find out one day.

BL: Absolutely.

Q: Did you ever get any idea through any documentation or anything that this kind of alien technology is being researched or tested at any other planets?

BL: No.

HOST: Bob, this information at S-4 about gravity propulsion and so on, control, wave control... What does that do to endeavors like Kip Thorn at Cal-Tech with his...[?]...wanting to spend tens of millions, or multiplied millions, on this light interferonomy gravity observatory? Doesn't it rather mothball that?

BL: It does, and that's just another reason not to look at this from a realistic point of view, because it really will shoot down a lot of research effort like that. But it shouldn't, it shouldn't. Research like that should go on anyway, if for nothing else just to prove that it doesn't work.

Q: Can you speculate as to how you think they found us, or why they came to us?

BL: You can speculate as well as I can.

QF: Would anything in their technology seem to imply that they can sense life anywhere else? Does it seem like just randomly flying around the block?

BL: No, but if the documentation was correct about genetic manipulation, they didn't have to find us.

QF: Forgot about that.

AUDIENCE: They didn't just happen to snoop around Roswell one day, right?

BL: Probably not.

Q: Did you ever hear anyone allude to the fact that maybe the Russians might have their own Area S-4?

BL: I don't know. George Knapp just got back from Russia, and I spoke with him recently. He purchased--since apparently the whole country's up for sale--I guess he purchased from the KGB and the Russian government all information pertaining to flying saucers. He's got that information. His company, Altamira Corporation, that financed the whole trip, and the whole nine yards, I guess will be releasing that. He's got all that stuff.... Just a couple more; I'm really beat.

Q: It always worries me to come up here because of the atomic blasts that were upwind of us in Plutonium Valley [in the Nevada Test Site], probably 40 or 50 miles away. What ever happened to the plutonium in the U-238 that's been dispersed here and around this area, the fallout that went up to Cedar City? According to that EPA monitor a quarter of a mile away, we're about four times the background dose that we'd be getting in Los Angeles.

BL: Of plutonium?

QF: Well, of the stuff...

BL: When an atomic bomb or thermonuclear bomb detonates, most of the plutonium, though it doesn't all go into fusion, or fission for that matter--It's a fission; hydrogen goes into fusion.--is really consumed in the fireball. The other fallout products--the radioactive iodine, the strontium-90, things like that--those are all over the place, and there it's still around. But time has gone by, though most of them haven't even reached their half-life yet, they are diluted in a large amount of space. It's relatively safe; the concentrations aren't that high.

Q: So if we went down the Groom Lake Road and got chased out by the guards, and all the dust that got in the automobile...

BL: Oh, that's no problem. You'd die of something else way before that probably.

[Laughter.]

HOST: So, Bob, the Cash-Landrum saucer that gave off this tremendous radioactive radiation and causing irreparable harm, how does that fit in? It's obviously not Element 115 gravity wave.

BL: No, it's not. I'm not even convinced that that was an alien craft. That might have been a government attempt at a nuclear powered craft--incredibly dirty, obviously. Just looking at some of the medical photographs, the burns, the loss of hair. It was either gamma or neutron radiation. I don't know what the status is of her now.

HOST: Another question. Our friend Jeff, who actually saw the saucer up close, it shot out at him right at Mailbox, we showed that earlier by the way. Anyway, he said that he got a sort of a sunburn, probably from UV. Is it possible these craft give off...?

BL: Well, beta burn is also... looks like sunburn. Beta particles, electrons. It looks exactly like sunburn.

HOST: So this would be the radiation from the craft...

BL: Yeah, but if he just were going for a blood cell test, a high white cell count will verify that it was radiation exposure, because you get that reflex operation.

Q: Bob, I know it isn't your first choice to make public appearances like this. I just want to tell you, in case nobody else states it clearly enough, we, all of us, really appreciate you coming here.

[Applause.]

BL: Thank you. I appreciate it. I'm kind of beat, so I'll just turn it back over to Gary here and go sit in the bar or something along those lines. Thank you.

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