Orffyreus Flames - Updated 12/15/97

From: Jerry
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,alt.sci.physics
Subject: Bessler/Orffyreus Engine
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 04:15:56 -0800
Organization: KeelyNet

Hi Folks!

In 1712, Johann Bessler demonstrated a self-running wheel which produced useable torque. The machine had many detractors claiming that Bessler was a fraud and was trying to bilk money from the public or from potential investors. This attitude has not changed to this day.

As time went on, Bessler changed his name to Orffyreus and made ever larger versions of the machine to lift ever greater weights. He refused to communicate the secret of the machine but offered to sell it for 20,000 pounds. This is the equivalent to approximately 2.5 million in today's US currency.

The story has been floating around in free energy and weird science circles since I can remember, but has been given little credence. A superb book has been written by John Collins entitled, 'Perpetual Motion: an ancient mystery solved?' with a subtitle of 'an investigation into the legend of Bessler's wheel.'

The book became available in July/August of 1997. Within the past two weeks, after 276 years of secrecy, a friend read the book and within two days had figured out the 'coding' system used by Bessler. This is leading to a description of the inner parts of the wheel and how they relate to use gravity as the driving force.

The people involved want the secret to be discovered, tested and shared as a working model. These people also want that information to be freely shared so that the Bessler/Orffyreus principles can be duplicated for use around the world. To that end, the clues are being posted for study by anyone interested or who may want to offer advice or insights into the operation of the device. If you might be interested and would like to examine the clues to date, you are welcome to study them or participate, your option. Click keelynet below.

If you live to flame or criticize, go away and play with the rest of the children, we want to make or inspire positive changes and share them, period.

Stuff of Children's Dreams - nothing more

From: Mike Painter
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,alt.sci.physics
Subject: Re: Bessler/Orffyreus Engine
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:17:12 -0800
Organization: Zippo News Service [http://www.zippo.com]

Something for nothing has always been the dream of children.

If they grow up and maintain the dream they are either ignorant or frauds. Ignorance is excusable and the frauds want something of yours for nothing of theirs.

As long as you continue to post something that is not new, not physics and not a theory here or any other place where rational people read it you will be flamed, if only to protect the ignorant and the children.

Bessler was a fraud as are the other devices at this site (KeelyNet).

Gravity Gradient

From: Jerry
Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,alt.sci.physics
Subject: Re: Bessler/Orffyreus Engine
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 07:17:44 -0800
Organization: KeelyNet

Re : Bessler/Orffyreus Engine
Date : Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:17:12 -0800
From : Mike Painter
Newsgroups : alt.sci.physics.new-theories, sci.physics, alt.sci.physics

>Something for nothing has always been the dream of children.
>If they grow up and maintain the dream they are either ignorant or
>frauds. Ignorance is excusable and the frauds want something of yours
>for nothing of theirs.

>As long as you continue to post something that is not new, not physics
>and not a theory here or any other place where rational people read it
>you will be flamed, if only to protect the ignorant and the children.

>Bessler was a fraud as are the other devices at this site.

Agreed, there is no something for nothing.

However, gravity is a force which has a gradient. As you move higher above the earth, gravity is less. In space, gravity is essentially gone.

Therefore, gravity has a gradient.

Anything that has a gradient has a difference of potential between the layers that produce the gradient.

Anything that has a difference of potential can be tapped to do work.

The Orffyreus machine used gravity to keep it running by shifting the weights.

This is Not new (1712)
This IS physics
Gravity and its gradient is NOT a theory

No one person or group has been appointed god, policeman or thought enforcer of the physics newsgroups.

Got it?

Orffyreus Long Ago Debunked (hasn't read the book)

December 13, 1997

The following was preceded by flames from an person who threatens legal action if his 'most valuable' comments are posted on a 'private' website. (I will use the pseudonym SumZero.)

From SumZero

Jerry writes:

>No information or positive comments worth replying to.

SumZero said the above quote by Decker also applied to the Orffyreus engine which was debunked centuries ago. Then made a threat warning retribution WHEN we ask for money.

Need for Constructive Comments

Responding to SumZero

Jerry writes:

You sure love to make veiled threats about legal this and that in your posts....is that your way of trying to keep people quiet with whom you disagree? Won't work here.

My great-aunt always said if something is discomforting to you, walk away from it. It's been great advice over the years.

If I can't find something constructive to say about a new idea or theory (and Bessler is old but new to many), I simply read the information and go on my way. If I see a way to offer a constructive comment or point to something that might help, then I contribute it.

In the case of machines (as opposed to new theories), the only true proof is that the machine operates as claimed and that others can verify it through independent duplication or testing.

This attitude of denigrating or threatening a new idea (or the person posting the idea) is puzzling to me since it offers no advice of use, so why bother responding?

Truth will stand the test of time.

Orffyreus was not debunked as can be seen by simply doing the homework.

Self-Appointed Guardian of Truth

As of 12/13/97, SumZero blinked.

Jerry writes:

>You sure love to make veiled threats about legal this and that in your
>posts....is that your way of trying to keep people quiet with whom you
>disagree? Won't work here.

He says he did not make a threat.

He admitted gravity was indeed a force that could be used and that my statements had been accurate.

He also admits we did not promote anything, including the book, for the purpose of making money nor did we request money from readers to invest in the Orffyreus project.

A further comment was that 'some people do' (solicit money) making them subject to prosecution. (It is an irrelevant comment since we did not.)

>If I can't find something constructive to say about a new idea or theory
>(and Bessler is old but new to many), I simply read the information and
>go on my way.

To this he claims his response was indeed constructive, serving as a warning to others, (less able to discern truth than he, 'the guardian of wisdom stance' a mental disease affliciting many unmoderated newsgroups) that the Orffyreus device so described was 'a long discredited perpetual motion machine.'

Failed History of Free Energy - Need Something Different

Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:13:41 -0800
From: Jerry
Organization: KeelyNet
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Bessler wheel worked this way ??

Hi Rick!

I remember those experiments with sprouts over turntables...they were very interesting...man, you must be a geezer too.....!! A question for you (and all who are relying on their 'current' knowledge of the Orffyreus story), have you read John Collins book on the Bessler wheel?

If not, then you are out of date....if you have, then at least you've done some homework on it beyond the old stories (including the one from 1956 that I posted).

The bottomline....(prefaced by a definition of a working O/U device = a self- running machine that can also do work, available as plans THAT WORK, as a kit that you can buy or as a complete unit);

  • a) Freenrg-l activities hasn't produced a single working device...
  • b) none of the KeelyNet material or activities have produced a working device....
  • c) none of the Vortex-l activities have produced a working device
  • d) nothing that I've seen or heard of on the InterNet (2 years now) has shown a working device (also preceded by 2 years offline)
  • e) no magazine, periodical or newsletter has produced a working device
  • f) AND no conference has produced a working device.
So, haven't we all been chasing our tails up to this point?

We need something different, even if it seems to be irrational based on math, vector analysis, our current understanding of physics or just digging in 'a hole as dry as the Bessler wheel'.

Just hide and watch....if it fails, I'll report it, if it works, I'll report it....we all learn from our mistakes (should) and I (think I) see potential (no pun intended) here that those who haven't read the book, heck some who have, might not see....

Perhaps I am deluding myself (I'm not alone based on the emails I and John Collins get about it), but there are many others who are also fascinated by the shifting weight idea....some quite famous, but I won't drop names out of respect.

In the proper vernacular, "Away ye flames, ye Cavendish balances, ye SMOTs, ye cold fusion arguments, ye Greenpeace, ye flying frogs, ye reposts and catfights; all that awakeneth NOT the imagination and the WILL to build the future."

PPM Toy a Fake?

Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:03:46 -0800
From: Jerry
Organization: KeelyNet
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Uncles Perpetual Motion Toy, question ??

Hi Steve!

Bruce told me the story and I wrote it up...he says it worked and his cousins (their father, built it) verified that it was self-running.

Choices:

Check out the Macrosonix website about their mechanical cavity to compress sound....something new, hardly, Keely claimed to have done it back in the 1880s. Sound currently can produce refrigeration or heat, just the beginning....doesn't that sound hard to believe, but its real.

Again, years and years of talk, speculation and rehashing old and new claims, still nothing that works from the alternative science community...isn't that odd?

I vote for lateral thinking, today!